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Hello and welcome to Coming Clean with me. My name is Elliot Ward, addiction specialist. And here in the studio with me today is Tal Bukar. After his ink resilience at Tattoo’s, Art is triumph over addiction. And he’s mum, a special guest. Mikel How are you doing

00:00:24:19 – 00:00:25:22
Mikel
Mikel Great.

00:00:25:22 – 00:00:45:18
Elliott Wald
Thank you and so good to have you back at sea. Pleasure having you back. So if you remember the last episode with Charles, I was talking about how his addiction, how it was secret, how it escalated, how he kept it secret from his family, how it led to some online gambling. And then he got himself clean with the support and help of his family and how important his family were.

00:00:45:20 – 00:00:57:29
Elliott Wald
So I thought it’d be a really interesting angle to have his mum and so in the studio today to get it from a family’s perspective. So thank you both for coming here today. So let’s kick off, right? How are you doing today?

00:00:58:00 – 00:00:58:26
Tal
Yeah, good. Thank you.

00:00:58:27 – 00:01:04:10
Elliott Wald
Yes. Yes. Good. Good. Laughs good. Being clean? Absolutely. You wake up early in the morning.

00:01:04:13 – 00:01:05:08
Tal
Always.

00:01:05:11 – 00:01:18:02
Elliott Wald
That’s the thing, isn’t it? All of a sudden, you wake up in the morning and. And life feels good. Like your body clock’s accustomed, and. And you. And you go to sleep at a reasonable time, and things are good. You enjoying life? Yeah. Present.

00:01:18:02 – 00:01:20:03
Tal
Being present as much as I can be.

00:01:20:10 – 00:01:32:07
Elliott Wald
As much as you can be. So, Michel, so just tell me, you know, what was the first thing you noticed that told you that there was something not quite right.

00:01:32:10 – 00:02:04:20
Mikel
I think there was something that wasn’t quite right for quite a long time. And I think it was withdrawal, not wanting to socialize with family, always making excuses for not being part of any family functions that we did. But I was very naive and I didn’t really think that it would be what it transpired to be. I just thought it was, you know, an age thing and just personality, a you know, just wanting to withdraw a little bit.

00:02:04:27 – 00:02:22:05
Elliott Wald
Right. Because I know person because I’ve known you since school pulling in all the credits and favors. Here I am. you’re a very tight knit family. You’re a very, very close family. Like, you know, if I was to look up to a family, I think I have a very tight, tight bonds. Your family is certainly way up there.

00:02:22:05 – 00:02:28:27
Elliott Wald
Top of the list. Yes. So that must have been quite heart wrenching when you realized what the problem was.

00:02:28:29 – 00:02:56:07
Mikel
Yes, it was a huge shock and it came as a really, really big surprise. But I think that alongside of that, there was some kind of relief because at least there was something to kind of explain why Todd was behaving in the way that he was. And it allowed me to start being able to put in place measures that would help him.

00:02:56:10 – 00:03:18:27
Mikel
Up until that point, it was very difficult to know what the problem was. We could speculate on a lot of different things. Right. When I got the phone call from Tal, which was a very distressed call, and immediately I reassured him that whatever the problem was, we would deal with it and he just has to come home. There was a sense of relief, although there was huge fear.

00:03:18:29 – 00:03:28:00
Mikel
But at least now I could step into my role and, you know, try and help him the best way possible to address the problem.

00:03:28:02 – 00:03:35:13
Elliott Wald
So tell me tell me about that phone call to your mum. How did that come about? What made you make that phone call to your mum?

00:03:35:15 – 00:03:54:00
Tal
pure desperation. I had no I had nothing left. and I, we probably touched on it on my podcast, but I really felt like I only had two options, and one was to kill myself, and the other was to call my mum.

00:03:54:02 – 00:03:59:12
Elliott Wald
Because you’re just as a recap, your escalation of usage had got to how frequently?

00:03:59:14 – 00:04:00:00
Tal
Every day.

00:04:00:07 – 00:04:00:23
Elliott Wald
Every day.

00:04:00:23 – 00:04:06:13
Tal
Every day. multiple times a day. but not only was it using drugs, it was gambling.

00:04:06:13 – 00:04:08:27
Elliott Wald
Yes.

00:04:09:00 – 00:04:13:05
Tal
drinking, smoking weed, doing coke, like the like everything on you. It was.

00:04:13:05 – 00:04:13:14
Elliott Wald
Awful.

00:04:13:19 – 00:04:28:09
Tal
Yeah, I was. I was. I was full. And whilst trying to maintain a job, whilst trying to maintain a relationship, it was all. It was all just too much. And I felt like I had nowhere left to go.

00:04:28:09 – 00:04:40:27
Elliott Wald
So you reached this real below the bottom basement, so you kind of went to the floor beneath the floor? Yeah. And you reached a moment where you reached out to him and made the phone call. What is it you said?

00:04:40:29 – 00:05:01:28
Tal
I actually don’t. I don’t know if I remember fully, but it wasn’t the whole truth. I think I. I think I started to drip feed some information. I think it started with the gambling addiction, from what I remember. And it was only until I was a couple of weeks into treatment that the drug addiction came.

00:05:02:01 – 00:05:11:10
Elliott Wald
I said, Did you did you think since your mum, I’ve got a gambling addiction would be less of a blow to her than saying I’ve got a drug problem?

00:05:11:12 – 00:05:23:09
Tal
No, I think I actually just wanted to keep the drug addiction. I think I wanted to keep it to myself so that I wouldn’t have to give it up. but if I gave her the gambling addiction, that would explain a lot of the behavior. And that got her.

00:05:23:09 – 00:05:23:22
Elliott Wald
Off your back.

00:05:23:22 – 00:05:33:22
Tal
Yeah, it got her off my back. It took some of the pressure off me, and it it meant that I could keep keep the keep the drug addiction to the side and dip into it when I wanted to.

00:05:33:24 – 00:05:51:19
Elliott Wald
With something else. So as far as you knew at the beginning, it was a gambling addict. I’m not saying it’s only a gambling one’s worse or better. That’s not what I meant. But somehow in society, perhaps a gambling addiction isn’t as looked at as badly. I don’t know. Maybe that’s why he thought that, although he wanted to keep it.

00:05:51:27 – 00:05:56:17
Elliott Wald
So when he told you that, how did you feel?

00:05:56:20 – 00:06:05:12
Mikel
Well, when I looked for rehab for him, I actually presented as a a gambling as an addict with a gambling problem.

00:06:05:13 – 00:06:06:12
Elliott Wald
It was online gambling.

00:06:06:16 – 00:06:20:05
Mikel
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. So that’s how I presented him to the the rehab center. And very soon after he went in, it was like they said to me, like, he’s an act. He’s a drug addict.

00:06:20:09 – 00:06:21:12
Elliott Wald
they told you?

00:06:21:15 – 00:06:27:01
Mikel
Well, not. Not in that way, but not directly. Came, you know, much more.

00:06:27:03 – 00:06:29:18
Elliott Wald
It started. They started opening up Pandora’s box.

00:06:29:19 – 00:06:54:00
Mikel
Exactly. But initially it was a gambling addiction. And interestingly, you are right there. It does sound a little bit easier on the palate in our society, in our community, to say, you know, my son’s a gambler. Yeah. You know, because a lot of people are maybe they are just not in trouble gambling, but they, you know, partake online in bets and whatever.

00:06:54:00 – 00:06:58:03
Mikel
So, yes, that’s how I first found out about the.

00:06:58:06 – 00:07:15:09
Elliott Wald
I mean, pick up on what you saw. I think definitely, because if you think about going to the corner shop, you can buy scratchcards, you can put a pound or five or 2 hours. There’s always the corner shop the other day and there was someone doing £50 on the lottery. You know, I stood there thinking and she was doing all the same numbers every week.

00:07:15:09 – 00:07:20:21
Elliott Wald
And I’m thinking, Wow, if you miss a week, you’re going to be like, my gosh. So? So it is a bit more acceptable, right?

00:07:20:21 – 00:07:21:12
Mikel
There’s a little bit more.

00:07:21:12 – 00:07:35:28
Elliott Wald
So it was so it’s almost a double blow to you in the nicest possible way that. Yes, it’s great. Your son has told you is a problem. Mum, I need help that he’s able to have the relationship with you, that he could do that. You know, that’s a lovely thing because I, I see a lot of people who cannot do that.

00:07:36:00 – 00:07:58:20
Mikel
So that was the biggest gift he gave me that day was the trust. And I’ve always tried to instill in our family that there’s no problem we can’t deal with. You know, you just have to come home. That’s what I always say. Just come home. And I mean it metaphorically. But I mean as come home back to your family and we will always support you.

00:07:58:20 – 00:08:17:18
Mikel
So when he called me, I said, Just come home. And he actually I don’t know what I said exactly, because I was obviously in quite a frantic state, but I couldn’t get hold of him. I was at work and he actually went to my home where he was with my husband, but I couldn’t get hold of him.

00:08:17:21 – 00:08:18:17
Elliott Wald
Okay.

00:08:18:19 – 00:08:39:20
Mikel
And when I came in and I saw him there, I was hugely relieved because in that time I thought maybe he didn’t believe me. And he took the other option. And I saw him. And I know that he felt a lot of love in that moment. And although he didn’t tell the full truth for quite a little while, there was a safety there.

00:08:39:20 – 00:08:54:14
Mikel
I believe that meant that, you know, we could deal with there somehow. So we didn’t know the extent at the time and it was quite a big problem. Well, a big problem and bigger than and it became bigger and.

00:08:54:14 – 00:08:56:04
Elliott Wald
Bigger, exponentially expanded.

00:08:56:08 – 00:09:05:00
Mikel
Yes. But there was no panic and there was no drama and there was no why me? Why did you do this to me?

00:09:05:00 – 00:09:06:03
Elliott Wald
Why there was no blame?

00:09:06:03 – 00:09:29:07
Mikel
No, I believe that the initial the initial reaction, I believe, was the reaction that Tyler hopefully expected when he made that call. And then received. And that was the beginning and the foundation, hopefully, if I’m correct to his you know, to his recovery, really to to his want to get better.

00:09:29:10 – 00:09:47:01
Elliott Wald
You know, I think that’s an admirable way to respond because I think many people will get angry at their child about why have you done this? What are you doing? You’ve had a good life, what’s going on? But you kind of opened up and embraced and went, okay, you shared this with me. What can I do to help you?

00:09:47:05 – 00:10:08:19
Mikel
I believe so, yes. And interestingly, without even knowing it already, I must have had an inclination that there is I mean, I knew that he smoked weed and I knew, you know, those kind of things. And I gathered the clubbing and things, other things and places, other things happen. And I reached out to somebody on Facebook that said that, you know, he was an ex addict.

00:10:08:19 – 00:10:12:08
Mikel
And and I reached out to him weeks before that.

00:10:12:10 – 00:10:13:16
Elliott Wald
Just mother’s intuition.

00:10:13:24 – 00:10:27:25
Mikel
Just as an instinct. I it’s always been something that’s interested me with sons and daughters, etc.. So already I was kind of read prepared Yeah. For something.

00:10:27:26 – 00:10:33:29
Elliott Wald
Yeah. So how did that make you feel when your mum responded in that way?

00:10:34:01 – 00:11:05:10
Tal
It’s interesting because I actually haven’t thought about that the whole scenario for quite a few years. So it kind of, it this, the conversation is like taking me back a bit. I dunno, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of hard to say. I think that, I think as much as I was scared to have the conversation, I, I, I don’t think I was, expecting anything different.

00:11:05:12 – 00:11:34:03
Tal
although the most difficult part for me was acknowledging that I had an issue. So it wasn’t, I don’t think there was much fear around the reaction. It was, it was more acknowledging it for myself. Yeah. but I mean, from, from that moment, everything changed and, and I think if, if, if the conversations and the kind of the way I was received and, and everything didn’t happen in that same way, then it would potentially be very different now.

00:11:34:06 – 00:11:50:27
Tal
but everything, everything happened the way that it was supposed to, you know, because of, because of my life now, because of how things changed that I, I couldn’t want for anything different because of, because of how it’s all transpired since then.

00:11:51:00 – 00:12:07:01
Elliott Wald
Yeah. Did you find that a difficult conversation to, to, to start by telling your mum that was that difficult? Because also, I must say, knowing that you’re such an open family, did you have an expectation your mum would respond in that way or did you not know or what?

00:12:07:04 – 00:12:15:02
Tal
I don’t think I knew really, because, you know, mum can be quite excitable.

00:12:15:04 – 00:12:17:04
Elliott Wald
what a what a carefully chosen word.

00:12:17:10 – 00:12:19:00
Mikel
Thank you.

00:12:19:02 – 00:12:28:24
Tal
and so, so that there had been times in the past over certain things that, you know, mum had responded in, in a more excited way.

00:12:28:26 – 00:12:36:01
Elliott Wald
Can I ask you a question. Those I don’t need to know what those other things are but those other things in comparison to what this was with a small thing.

00:12:36:09 – 00:12:41:00
Tal
yeah. Massively. Which is, which is what I was, I was going to say that because this was such a big thing.

00:12:41:00 – 00:12:41:17
Elliott Wald
Yeah.

00:12:41:20 – 00:12:44:28
Tal
I, I don’t think it could have been handled in any, any other way.

00:12:44:28 – 00:12:45:27
Elliott Wald
That’s interesting.

00:12:45:27 – 00:13:17:27
Tal
Because the, the, the, the, the more excited responses wouldn’t have, wouldn’t have worked because I was already terrified. Yeah. and it already taken me so much and so much time for me to release that information that any wrong word any wrong phrase or reaction would have just sent me running. Yeah. and it was, it was a I was giving up my secrets at that point and they were mine and they, you know, amongst everything else in, in life that, that I didn’t have to myself.

00:13:17:27 – 00:13:25:20
Tal
I, I held those quite secretly. Yeah. and they were, they were my friends, they were my. Do you know what I mean? They were.

00:13:25:20 – 00:13:26:06
Elliott Wald
Mine.

00:13:26:08 – 00:13:42:27
Tal
Yeah, they were mine. They were mine only. And no one knew about them. And. And to let them go and to let them be out in the open was a, was a terrifying thing because they wouldn’t be mine anymore and nothing else would be the same. Because once someone knows, they. They wouldn’t be a secret.

00:13:42:27 – 00:13:44:01
Elliott Wald
They would always put it back in the book.

00:13:44:01 – 00:13:55:24
Tal
Yeah, there would always be a, there would always be a suspicion or a or a question about had I done something or whatever. As soon as I spoke about it, it was, you know, it was the whole the gig was up.

00:13:55:28 – 00:14:14:08
Elliott Wald
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. You were excitable. Mum’s been excited with other things, but it’s interesting that when they’re small things that in the scheme of life, yeah, they’re not really that important. Yeah, but when it’s something that is important, the way that Mum reacted was, you know, the way it needed to be the right way.

00:14:14:11 – 00:14:24:14
Elliott Wald
I also know you’re very close to your two brothers and your sister. What was that conversation like with them?

00:14:24:17 – 00:14:41:00
Tal
I can only really remember one of them, which was with my older brother. and I remember it being quite emotional because he was impacted quite, quite a lot by the, by the whole thing.

00:14:41:03 – 00:14:42:15
Elliott Wald
Impacted in what way?

00:14:42:18 – 00:15:07:07
Tal
He was, he was, he was probably just as scared as I was because he, he didn’t really know, but he knew something and he couldn’t quite put his finger on it, but he had a suspicion and he, you know, he, he, he we live together. Yes. And so he saw me retreat over a number of years. And and, you know, to the point where he’d check on me in the night or in the morning to check that I was still alive or still breathing or whatever.

00:15:07:07 – 00:15:20:00
Tal
And so when he when when it when it all came out, I think he was massively relieved. But he was also scared. And he was also sad and disappointed. And it was all of the emotions.

00:15:20:03 – 00:15:34:04
Elliott Wald
Yeah. So all of a sudden it’s all over. It’s like this emotional thing that suddenly been out there. As you say, there’s a relief from knowing what it is that finally you can solve it. Yeah, there’s also. my gosh, my brother, my sister, my son, you know, he’s in this situation. What can I do?

00:15:34:04 – 00:15:47:18
Tal
Yeah, Yeah. And, you know, I both my brothers had actually asked me outright a number of times before I let go of the secrets, whether I was using drugs. I was that clued up.

00:15:47:18 – 00:15:48:11
Elliott Wald
Yeah. We all.

00:15:48:12 – 00:16:18:21
Tal
Yeah, I mean, they, they found baggies in my room and I always had an excuse as to when they were from, you know, and like an addict does, I collected, I had, I had bundles of empty baggies for no reason whatsoever. And so they had found them. I’d come home one evening and I’d, I’d found them searching my room and I’d always I’d always had excuses as to why I didn’t have any money or why, you know, why I was so tired all the time, why I went to bed so early or was up so late or whatever it was.

00:16:18:21 – 00:16:37:27
Tal
And so when they asked me out why I didn’t tell them, but they they knew. But they couldn’t do anything like, you know, like, like most people in the same situation as them. Until you’re given the answers, you what are you expected to do? You can’t do anything until they say those words.

00:16:38:00 – 00:16:41:01
Elliott Wald
Yeah. Who did you tell first?

00:16:41:03 – 00:16:42:27
Tal
I think it was. I think it was Mum.

00:16:42:27 – 00:17:02:20
Elliott Wald
Okay. Yeah. And after Charles told you this and you’ve responded in the in a in a way that’s kind of like you, my son. I love you. You know, we’re going to fix this. I’m glad you’ve told me. what was your conversation like with the rest of the family once he told you?

00:17:02:22 – 00:17:27:09
Mikel
I think to an extent, it was really autopilot. And just now, finding the right way forward. Really, there’s. There was no conversation. It was, it’s interesting because I had quite a few friends and family members that were quite annoyed that I didn’t tell them at the time, really. And what was very interesting is I said, it’s not my story to tell.

00:17:27:11 – 00:17:36:26
Mikel
It’s really it’s not my story to tell. You know, I was in rehab for a few months. It was Dadaab, so he managed to keep his job and to to to do that amongst normal life.

00:17:36:27 – 00:17:37:24
Elliott Wald
Nobody knew.

00:17:37:29 – 00:18:02:02
Mikel
No, nobody knew. And people that knew didn’t know it from me. So when, you know, things started, rumors started to circulate. And I got approach with, you know, how are the boys? You know, it’s always how the boys are fishing. Yeah. How the boys, you know, what they up to and whatever. And then when it was more official and until I was in a better place, you’d, they’d say, you know, I know about Tal and how’s he doing.

00:18:02:02 – 00:18:21:00
Mikel
And you know, why didn’t you say anything? And I’d say, you know, he’s an adult. It’s not my story to tell. It’s his story to tell. I can only be I can only tell my story. And my story is the story of the parent who and the support and what I felt I needed and could do at that time.

00:18:21:02 – 00:18:35:11
Mikel
And yeah, it was just that was it that this is who he is. This is what was going on. It was not there was no shame. There was no there was no secrets. It just wasn’t my story to tell. Really?

00:18:35:14 – 00:19:02:19
Elliott Wald
Yeah. And then you’ve thought he’s approached you as his online gambling problem. You’ve got him into rehab to get help. You’ve approached rehab with the mindset that it’s an online gambling because that’s what you’ve known. And then a couple of weeks into it, it manifests itself that he’s got an online gambling, but he’s online gambling is really only the byproducts of he using cocaine because he only ever online gamble when he use cocaine.

00:19:02:19 – 00:19:14:19
Elliott Wald
Right. I mean, I have a lot clients like that. So when you suddenly find out that it wasn’t just online gambling, but it was cocaine as well, how did that how did you feel in the moment you found that out?

00:19:14:21 – 00:19:47:16
Mikel
I don’t think I felt any different because by that time I started to understand better the disease. Yes, I started to understand better the behavior, and I started to understand the journey that we were that title was setting on, thankfully. And I say thankfully, because not everyone can go on that journey. And actually do the work because it’s excruciating work.

00:19:47:19 – 00:20:04:29
Mikel
By that time it was just another part of the addiction, and I understood the addiction as the as the whole rather than the little bits and pieces. So it didn’t matter really what it was, because it could have been any one of the addictions. I just I.

00:20:04:29 – 00:20:30:18
Tal
Think there was I, I think there was an element of frustration from you, because I remember you asking me what else I didn’t have. What else is there that’s going to come out? Yeah, sure. And which is completely understandable. But I remember a number of conversations of you saying, you know what? What else? Please tell me now. Is there anything else I need to know rather than because I, you know, I still wanted to keep some things to myself.

00:20:30:18 – 00:20:36:10
Tal
Yes. So I was still drip feeding. Yeah. but yeah, I mean.

00:20:36:12 – 00:20:36:29
Elliott Wald
So, you.

00:20:37:00 – 00:20:50:16
Tal
Know, I would say that you were there were elements of you being frustrated, even though you understood that it was all part of the illness and the the secrecy and the lying and the hiding was something that I just I just did is second nature. But yes.

00:20:50:18 – 00:20:53:20
Mikel
I think I think what it is, is it’s the shock, isn’t it?

00:20:53:22 – 00:20:56:13
Elliott Wald
I think it’s I think it’s the shock and fear that it might be something.

00:20:56:13 – 00:21:16:28
Mikel
Completely it’s the shock and the fear. And also, you know, without going into too much detail, there was a lot to tidy up. Yeah, there was a lot to tidy up financially. There was a lot of to tidy up and knowing that that was going to be my responsibility. I just wanted, I almost wanted him just to sit there and just say everything.

00:21:16:28 – 00:21:32:16
Elliott Wald
I’m just going to cut you off. Sorry. Just thank you. You said. I think it’s really important. You said that knowing it was my responsibility. I think that’s a wonderful thing to say. What made you say that? Because I’ve interviewed other people and not everybody comes up with the same answer as you.

00:21:32:21 – 00:21:37:13
Mikel
I’m not sure that that is the correct approach, but sure. But it was my approach.

00:21:37:15 – 00:21:39:19
Elliott Wald
So why do you feel that?

00:21:39:21 – 00:21:47:13
Mikel
Well, because he’s my son, and if he had any other illness, I would treat it exactly the same.

00:21:47:18 – 00:21:48:18
Elliott Wald
I mean.

00:21:48:20 – 00:22:21:22
Mikel
To me, Tyler presented me with an illness. A disease? Yeah. And it could have been a kidney disease. It could have been any one of the many, many illnesses that we can have in life. And that that’s him. So it’s it didn’t my I’m not going to say it didn’t matter, but it didn’t matter at the time. What mattered was making sure that I, as his parent, was able to give him the best opportunity and the best start to, you know, to move forward in a healthy way.

00:22:21:22 – 00:22:54:08
Mikel
And that involved cleaning up some of the mess because there’s no way that you can be in recovery if you’ve got a dealer ringing you because you own money, There’s no way that you can you know, you can have that hanging over you. So my frustration is quite rightly pointed out was because I felt that I just wanted him to come out with everything that is really sitting there hurting him and causing him this pain so he could start fresh and so that we wouldn’t have surprises along the way.

00:22:54:08 – 00:23:02:15
Elliott Wald
So you want to know everything? Not from being a nosey mother, but you wanted to know everything so that you could fully help him so that when he came out, it was a clean slate.

00:23:02:17 – 00:23:04:06
Mikel
Well, that was my intention, yes.

00:23:04:06 – 00:23:06:23
Elliott Wald
So did you did you clear up all the debts of the dealers?

00:23:06:26 – 00:23:08:02
Mikel
I believe I did.

00:23:08:04 – 00:23:11:06
Elliott Wald
Was all the dealers that you knew about? I’m not telling you.

00:23:11:09 – 00:23:35:08
Mikel
There was lots of things. And we sorted all of them out and it was very important to do. There were some very particular things that I wanted Tyler to be able to put behind him and not carry forward with him. And one of those things, as well as the rehab was that I was very scared of the 12 steps, really petrified.

00:23:35:13 – 00:23:38:10
Mikel
I was petrified of going into rehab as much as I wanted him.

00:23:38:10 – 00:23:39:16
Elliott Wald
To, because.

00:23:39:18 – 00:23:53:18
Mikel
Because I was scared that the that the rehab would turn him against his family. We did this really we said this. I should have been a better mom. His dad should have been a better dad. I shouldn’t have worked as much as I did or whatever you were.

00:23:53:18 – 00:23:56:12
Elliott Wald
I was going to apportion some blame. You.

00:23:56:13 – 00:23:58:10
Mikel
I was really scared of the blame.

00:23:58:13 – 00:24:00:27
Elliott Wald
Did you feel that there was any blame from you.

00:24:00:29 – 00:24:26:02
Mikel
Know, but every parent makes mistakes. Okay, So I wasn’t I wasn’t expecting that Tyler wouldn’t have had any issues with his childhood, his family, his life before that. But I was petrified because my relationship with him is so important to me that I was scared that I was going to lose him. And in fact, we gained the most growth out of that rehab.

00:24:26:02 – 00:24:46:19
Mikel
And that because I decided that I was going to go on my journey alongside him. So I was going to have therapy. I was going to take the stand. Where did what could I have contributed to making him feel the way that he did? Because although it’s an illness, there are a lot of emotions that sit deep down, definitely.

00:24:46:19 – 00:24:51:28
Mikel
And that was what I set out to do. Whether I did that right or not, only the proof.

00:24:51:28 – 00:25:12:03
Elliott Wald
I love that. I really love that. I think that’s one of the first time I’ve interviewed other mothers of other people that I’ve seen, that I’ve interviewed and other family dynamics. I think it’s the first time I’ve heard some, but it is the first time I’ve heard somebody say, I want you to go on a journey myself to deal with things The way you just said it was just was was.

00:25:12:06 – 00:25:28:02
Elliott Wald
Wow, That was quite Camilla were speaking with well, sorry, I’ve lost words for a minute. So that’s how when your mum says that and she also decided to go on a journey with you to help you get to the place you need to be. How did that make you feel?

00:25:28:05 – 00:25:31:04
Mikel
and is that correct? I mean, is that how you saw it?

00:25:31:06 – 00:25:40:20
Tal
Yeah. I mean, that’s exactly what happened, is, you know, not not just mum, but my my whole family came on the journey with me and their own.

00:25:40:20 – 00:25:41:20
Elliott Wald
Tell me about that.

00:25:41:22 – 00:25:52:17
Tal
Well, I mean, there were you know, there were there were a couple of family days at the rehab center that they invited family members along. Where were the patients? Weren’t there.

00:25:52:19 – 00:25:53:07
Elliott Wald
Weren’t there.

00:25:53:07 – 00:26:06:25
Tal
Weren’t there trying to kind of get their own understanding. And I remember how much I don’t really know the word, but how important that was and how that made me feel that my family attended those days.

00:26:06:27 – 00:26:07:22
Elliott Wald
They were there for you.

00:26:07:22 – 00:26:25:24
Tal
They were there and and they wanted to understand. And they you know, they they it wasn’t just all town’s got this issue of you go deal with it. It was everyone, everyone looking at their part, because as we know, it’s a family illness. And there were many you know, there are many different, different ways that it manifests and different reasons as to why.

00:26:25:24 – 00:26:53:01
Tal
And I that’s you know, it’s it’s not about me saying I’m this way because of anyone else. But there are things that happen throughout our lives that all impact each other. And and everyone came on that journey with me. and it was, it, it again, it’s, it’s one of the reasons why I feel I have seen success in recovery because it was not just about me.

00:26:53:03 – 00:27:20:24
Tal
You know, Mum made a real point of trying to understand the language and, and the kind of ways that, you know, we spoke about things and understanding the different terminologies that we use and, you know, things like the feedback loop and, you know, different things that of, of the way that we speak in treatment and, and how important that was to kind of implement that outside of it because you know, the work doesn’t stop when you step out the doors of the rehab.

00:27:20:26 – 00:27:27:12
Tal
You know if anything that’s where it starts because you’re not in the safe space anymore. Exactly. So that that that was massive.

00:27:27:13 – 00:27:35:27
Elliott Wald
Did you did you have to do a cost and and consequences when you’re in there? So the cost of what it costs you and the consequences that it’s led to when you’re in.

00:27:36:00 – 00:27:58:03
Tal
I don’t think specifically that but that, you know, that’s built into the steps. Okay. You know the when when you’re doing a step one and you’re kind of looking at the damage that you’ve caused and what you’ve lost and, you know, all of those things that and, you know, for me, the step one was the most important step because it was the first time that I saw in black and white the things that I had done.

00:27:58:03 – 00:28:06:11
Tal
And I had I had, I had caused, things that I had lost.

00:28:06:13 – 00:28:09:12
Elliott Wald
Was the guilt from that?

00:28:09:15 – 00:28:12:01
Tal
Yeah, the beginning there was, there was a lot of guilt.

00:28:12:01 – 00:28:16:10
Elliott Wald
And I loved the way you said at the beginning that. Which leads me to think that you moved through that.

00:28:16:10 – 00:28:28:04
Tal
Yeah, at the beginning, that was massive guilt. But now I don’t. I don’t feel the guilt because I, you know, I look back and I see how unwell I was and I wasn’t making those decisions. It wasn’t. It wasn’t me. Although it was me, obviously.

00:28:28:04 – 00:28:28:20
Elliott Wald
No, I just.

00:28:28:20 – 00:28:53:06
Tal
Mean making those decisions. It was a very, very sick person. Yes. And again, having worked through the steps and, you know, making peace with a lot of a lot of the things that I’ve done and and, you know, saying sorry to the people that I’ve hurt and, and, and all of that, all of that work means that I don’t carry that guilt any more.

00:28:53:09 – 00:28:57:02
Tal
because a lot of, a lot of the pain is caused by the shame and the guilt.

00:28:57:02 – 00:29:06:21
Elliott Wald
Yes, for sure. For sure. And I think, I think one of the things is if if somebody doesn’t address that pain and that guilt, that’s what leaves and sort of not the only thing, but that’s one of the things that leads.

00:29:06:24 – 00:29:07:18
Tal
Definitely.

00:29:07:20 – 00:29:09:03
Elliott Wald
To relapse in the future.

00:29:09:03 – 00:29:11:13
Tal
Definitely. Definitely.

00:29:11:15 – 00:29:29:17
Elliott Wald
I want to ask you, Michelle, one of the reasons that I started to do this podcast and started to talk in the social media is to help other people who are in a situation perhaps as the person who has the addiction themselves, but also people who have a loved one, a son, a mother, a brother, a cousin, an uncle.

00:29:29:17 – 00:29:54:06
Elliott Wald
And it doesn’t matter. Right. And you were incredibly supportive. That’s very clear. But I just want to get to the depths of some some of those dark moments that you had, because there must have been some dark moments that you can share that then other mothers, brothers, sisters, husbands, etc., can go, okay, okay, I’m also feeling this. And so this is normal because this lady felt this and she had a son there.

00:29:54:06 – 00:30:03:19
Elliott Wald
And look where they are now, which is a shining light. What were some of those dark moments for you? What were some of those frustrations?

00:30:03:21 – 00:30:23:02
Mikel
firstly, I guess there was huge guilt that I felt that I, I, I hadn’t noticed and I hadn’t helped earlier than when he came to me. So that was the first thing. It was like, how did I not know? How did I not know that my son’s an addict?

00:30:23:09 – 00:30:24:18
Elliott Wald
See how your tone of voice changed?

00:30:24:18 – 00:30:45:02
Mikel
And it it changes every time I say it. And I still feel the same about it. How do you not know? Really? I don’t. I don’t. I don’t berate myself about it, but I still am shocked at my naivety, let’s put it that way. Okay. I thought I was quite, you know, with it and I just didn’t know.

00:30:45:02 – 00:31:15:00
Mikel
And so that was a huge frustration. Obviously, along the way there was a lot of just worry, you know, worry of relapse, worry of, of finding it too difficult and possibly choosing the other option that was on the table at the time when he called me for a while, it was difficult to trust and have faith that he was going to get well.

00:31:15:00 – 00:31:42:01
Mikel
And what happens is obviously in in in the rehab, there are many there are many people. And you have the family support group and people tell stories about their loved ones and previous. You know, some people are in their third and fourth time or however many. I didn’t want to be one of those parents. I wanted to wholeheartedly believe that child could get better and have obviously the life that he wants.

00:31:42:01 – 00:32:04:24
Mikel
I could have never envisaged him having the life that he has now. So I’m hugely in awe of it. But I was scared all along. I was scared that maybe we weren’t going to be so fortunate. I had to dig deep. Really, really, really deep. You know, the nights when he went home after after the the sessions.

00:32:04:26 – 00:32:23:14
Mikel
So initially, when he first called, my initial instinct was to send to I say it like he had no control but actually at the time to send him to rehab for 30 days, a closed rehab. Yeah. And then I felt like how will he know how much we love him if he’s going to be in a center that.

00:32:23:16 – 00:32:30:18
Elliott Wald
I’ve shoved him away? Yeah, well, you’re afraid of shove them away. Yes, because I love him. But does he think I’ve shoved me away because I don’t love.

00:32:30:18 – 00:33:02:02
Mikel
Yes. How will he know how much we love him? So the the day job was the perfect the perfect resolution? Yes. So Tyler would come over most nights after I’d make him dinner, we’d sit and we talk about as much as he wanted to, what he’d learned, what he’d spoken about. And that gave me the opportunity to show him the love, you know, through my love language, through food, through conversation, through a hug, through, you know, and obviously everyone else around him.

00:33:02:02 – 00:33:15:18
Mikel
When he went home, his brothers, his dad, you know, his stepdad, his sister, everybody had that opportunity because he was amongst us. So we could still continue to, you know, cheer him along and but it was petrifying.

00:33:15:21 – 00:33:32:06
Elliott Wald
Yeah. So how do you do you think that really helped being able to go home from the day, being in rehab during the day to be home, go home with the family and have dinner and be able to talk to them. When you wanted to talk.

00:33:32:09 – 00:33:52:01
Tal
I didn’t I’d never really thought about it until mum said that. That’s kind of a reason why, but I think it was massively important because I, I know just from the kind of person I am that if I was away on my own, I would have felt on my own. And that for me is the same as when I was using.

00:33:52:04 – 00:34:02:22
Tal
So it was very important for me to not feel my own home. And like we said before, I felt like everyone had had come on the journey with me.

00:34:02:24 – 00:34:11:12
Tal
And it was it was just another another way to not be on my own, which for me is massively important.

00:34:11:12 – 00:34:31:16
Elliott Wald
I think when you use there’s definitely a narrowing of your life and the things that you do, and the longer your journey of addiction, the more your life narrows down to just becomes you and your substance. Yeah, but now you’ve got an opportunity to be open everything out the box to. To have somebody to, to and deal with and support.

00:34:31:16 – 00:34:42:04
Tal
Well, they say that the opposite of addiction is connection, definitely. And so that’s, that’s what I had. And I was so not used to it.

00:34:42:07 – 00:34:45:02
Elliott Wald
not used to it yet. You have a tight family.

00:34:45:04 – 00:35:07:25
Tal
BE But it was because of myself. I had withdrawn from it. It wasn’t because it wasn’t there, it was because I didn’t didn’t embrace it or didn’t want it or, or over time became so used to being without it that that just became the norm. But it was never not there. I just, I just shut myself away from it with the using shot away from it.

00:35:07:27 – 00:35:09:03
Elliott Wald
You had a different companion.

00:35:09:06 – 00:35:10:01
Tal
Yeah.

00:35:10:04 – 00:35:18:29
Elliott Wald
Yeah. You know, going back on site, you said earlier, Mick, how, how do you, how do you get that trust back.

00:35:19:01 – 00:35:20:00
Mikel
The trust with Tyler?

00:35:20:01 – 00:35:21:21
Elliott Wald
Yes.

00:35:21:23 – 00:35:54:26
Mikel
it takes time. It takes time. And I think it so for me, I, I kept, I kept going back to the phone call and I kept going back to that moment where he called and I so my biggest fear obviously, was he would do something to himself, right? That that’s every parent’s biggest fear and every time I felt nervous, worried, scared, I think he called me the first time he would call me again.

00:35:54:28 – 00:36:13:19
Mikel
And that’s all I kept saying to myself, If it’s not me, it’s one of his brothers, it’s his dad. He’d call someone because he I believed that he’d got what he needed from us, and he trusted us to know that we loved him. Any judgment? So if he needed it, he’d call again. And I kept saying that to myself, Just allow me.

00:36:13:22 – 00:36:42:28
Mikel
I have to say the Serenity Prayer. I kept it in my mind and I just I had to to start believing that he was getting the help that he needs, that he had the right people around him with the support of his family and most importantly, his willingness to get better. He was going to get better. And that’s what I kept telling myself, you know, that’s why I kept telling myself.

00:36:43:00 – 00:36:46:01
Mikel
And it you know, it helped me, you know.

00:36:46:04 – 00:37:06:00
Elliott Wald
Tell it just to ask you if somebody’s listening to this and they have an addiction themselves and they’re looking for help, I’m not talking about where to go for help right now. And they’re thinking, should I be able to tell my mum? Should I tell my brother, my sister, my dad, my mother, my cousin, blah, blah, blah? But I’m scared too.

00:37:06:00 – 00:37:18:06
Elliott Wald
I’m scared of their reaction. What would you say to them?

00:37:18:09 – 00:37:45:22
Tal
I what would I say? And that there’s got to be some level of trust there. that you, you have to trust that you’re not. You’re doing, you’re doing it for yourself. So it’s not, it’s not necessarily about the reaction you’re going to get. It’s more about letting go of the secrets for yourself. so, you know, there’s a lot of people out there that I’m sure haven’t been met with, with love and and for sure.

00:37:45:25 – 00:38:07:18
Tal
For sure and trust and all of those things. But I think it’s a, it’s about releasing from those secrets just as much as it is getting someone to support you in what you’re telling them, if that makes sense. Yeah. but also if, if you don’t try, you’ll never know. If you don’t say the words, you’ll never know how someone’s going to react.

00:38:07:21 – 00:38:10:17
Tal
So at least give them the opportunity to be there for you.

00:38:10:19 – 00:38:39:02
Elliott Wald
Yeah. Yeah, I think. I think that’s very true. You know why? Think about what you should have done. Why not do it and embrace the outcome? Yeah, and I mean, as a mum for those listening mums, dads, brothers, sisters who have a loved one who has an addiction, who has reached out to them, but yet they don’t know how to, to deal with them.

00:38:39:02 – 00:38:43:13
Elliott Wald
They don’t know how to respond, what would you say to them to encourage them and help them?

00:38:43:15 – 00:38:46:06
Mikel
So obviously this is all from my own experience.

00:38:46:06 – 00:38:46:18
Elliott Wald
That’s what we’re.

00:38:46:18 – 00:39:12:14
Mikel
Talking about and my perspective. But I think Meet them with love first and foremost. Look at them as the person that you love, that is your family member and love them for who they are, not for what it is that they’ve done. We all do things that we’re not proud of and just just meet them with love in the first instance.

00:39:12:14 – 00:39:34:29
Mikel
Let them feel the trust. Let them almost be reminded that away from the addict, they are still your son or your daughter or your husband or your family, whatever. Family member. That’s not entirely who they are. They’re not just an addict that’s come to you with something you don’t want to hear. You know, none of us want to hear that.

00:39:35:02 – 00:39:37:13
Mikel
But that’s not the whole person.

00:39:37:18 – 00:39:38:06
Elliott Wald
Yeah.

00:39:38:09 – 00:40:13:21
Mikel
And it was interesting. A year into Tyler’s recovery, I saw this neon picture frame thing randomly on a website, and it said Love wins. And I bought it for him on his first anniversary or thereabouts because felt very, very strong to me. That really and truly, if we can approach things with love and all the words that actually go with it, there is a good chance that they that your loved one will respond in the same way back.

00:40:13:24 – 00:40:27:01
Elliott Wald
Yeah, I mean, Charles is a wonderful story and to go through that treatment and to come out clean, I mean, just for the people who are listening now, how long have you been clean for?

00:40:27:03 – 00:40:28:16
Tal
over four and a half years.

00:40:28:16 – 00:40:48:29
Elliott Wald
Well, hat’s off, but what I’m going to say is that there are some people who can have been listening whose loved one has gone through addiction, who have tried to get some help, but have relapsed again. How how do you what would you say to those loved ones then?

00:40:49:01 – 00:41:13:11
Mikel
I would say would just take a day at a time. We just take a day at a time. Some days, you know, it’s just one foot in front of the other. And I think that’s how I look at it, is that it’s no different for anybody with any challenges. Life is difficult if you’re an addict, if you are struggling with your mental health in general, life is difficult not to put too much pressure.

00:41:13:14 – 00:41:34:15
Mikel
Yes. You know, there’s always a chance of a relapse. But if that day comes and there is a relapse, then you pick up a new start again and you work out, you know, whatever it is that you want to work out. But we just put one foot in front of the other and that is all we can do.

00:41:34:17 – 00:41:35:06
Mikel
All of us.

00:41:35:12 – 00:41:50:16
Elliott Wald
Yeah. I think you must close your eyes at night. I mean, I hope you close your eyes at night and think to yourself. Thank God I brought him up in a loving, family tight unit that he was able to come to me.

00:41:50:19 – 00:42:27:27
Mikel
I think I’d be very arrogant if that’s what I thought. That would be something that I would prefer to feel if that’s how he feels. And that’s one thing I’ve learned that I don’t speak for Tyler anymore. He, I probably did that for too long, trying to protect him and not knowing what was right. But I’m hugely proud of our family in all its blended ways because we are a big blended family for every single person doing what they did when they needed to do it to help to be the person that he is today.

00:42:27:27 – 00:42:40:09
Mikel
Although 99% of the work is Tyler’s, and that’s all that matters at the end. But if we formed 1%, all of us, that helped him be the person that he is today, then I’m hugely proud.

00:42:40:11 – 00:42:58:19
Elliott Wald
And what do you think Tyler is different now, having gone through this, having worked through the steps, having been clean for four and a half years and having the family rally round for one of the better word, what do you think is different in your life now? What do you notice from that? From that what you come out the other side with?

00:42:58:22 – 00:43:43:20
Tal
Everything is different. There’s not there’s not a single part of my life that’s the same, my relationships, my my work, my, my, my friendships. Everything is different. it allowed me to be the person that I was always meant to be. amongst all the stuff from the outside world that gets kind of piled on top of you when you, when you grow up and, you know, when you hear different things from society and whatever, and you start to take a lot of things on the, on your own, having, having them around me has allowed me to be who I have always been and who I was always supposed to be.

00:43:43:23 – 00:43:50:07
Tal
and truthfully, nothing is, nothing is the same. everything is, is better.

00:43:50:10 – 00:43:54:05
Elliott Wald
Really brighter. Yeah. Shine. Yeah, yeah.

00:43:54:08 – 00:43:56:02
Tal
Yeah. Always. But I.

00:43:56:03 – 00:43:58:10
Elliott Wald
Just. And we all have emotions. Yeah. You know.

00:43:58:13 – 00:43:59:08
Mikel
That is a big.

00:43:59:08 – 00:44:15:14
Elliott Wald
Yeah, I know, But, you know, we can’t have life, you know, without nights. How can we appreciate day? You know, you have to have a little bit of balance in your life. Can’t always be like, Whoa, whoa, life’s great. Yeah. You know, of course it’s nice to live that perception of that. But we have our up and down days.

00:44:15:18 – 00:44:26:02
Tal
But the lows are never as low. The highs the highs can be the same. Higher, but the lows are never as as low, which is, I think, the most important thing.

00:44:26:04 – 00:44:29:17
Elliott Wald
Well, is there any summing up words you’d like to add?

00:44:29:20 – 00:44:52:00
Mikel
Because I think it’s it’s it’s been a journey that has been excruciating for everyone concerned. But as a mother, it’s it’s been excruciating. But, what it’s given me in my son is a relationship I could have never imagined.

00:44:52:02 – 00:44:53:05
Elliott Wald
That’s beautiful.

00:44:53:07 – 00:45:24:04
Mikel
I could have never imagined So there is something about it that whilst no one ever wants it to land on their doorstep, and I hope I never, ever encounter that again, there is something hugely liberating about the relationship now and something hugely special because it’s wonderful to see my son being the person that he was always intended to be and wasn’t able to.

00:45:24:07 – 00:45:46:22
Mikel
So I just say, you know, give it your best, best, best shot to get well. There’s a hugely wonderful, bright life after addiction. It’s not always happy and Skippy, but it certainly is better than being so deeply, you know, in such a dark place and that there are people that love you and they will want to help you.

00:45:46:28 – 00:46:00:05
Mikel
They might not always be the parents or the people that we think that they’re going to be. They can be in a friend, they can be in a in a colleague. But there’s always someone that is willing to listen and help you if you reach out.

00:46:00:08 – 00:46:15:27
Elliott Wald
Yeah. Listen, Michael, thank you so much for coming and coming clean with me and sharing your experience and knowledge. So it’s a pleasure coming clean. We may really appreciate both your time and having us. I hope it inspires and helps. Else or a loved one who is also going through that.