Click Play Button Above To View Video

00:01:28:03 – 00:01:48:08

Hello, I’m Elliot Wald, addiction specialist. And welcome to another episode of Coming Play with me. And here today is my guest, Zach Oliver. Zach grew up experiencing a lot of trauma. And so this began a 15 year battle to deal with his addiction. Good morning Zach. And how are you doing? Thanks for being here. How are you doing?

00:01:48:10 – 00:02:08:19

Yeah. Thank you. How are you? I’m good. So tell me. Just take you back right through to your childhood. Tell me ways. Not growing up with the children. chaos is the best word to describe it, to be honest with you. it was up until about five. It was called a normal mom. Working class life. Mom and dad, happily married.

00:02:08:19 – 00:02:30:00

That worked. Mom was the housewife, you know, just as it was back in the early 90s. and but when I turned four, five, I think she’d become alcoholics. We had turned to alcohol just because after having my little sister, she had, really bad post-natal depression. I don’t think she suffered a lot as a child as well.

00:02:30:00 – 00:03:01:20

And she was abused by her, stepdad. And so she. That was troubling her, and I guess got to a point where she just couldn’t type and turn into an alcoholic at all. I lost my mom very quickly in terms of she was lost and died, but I lost the mom that I had. She become a monster. You know, she turned into just an insane woman around the house, you know, pissing in the kitchen, kitchen bin, standing up, looking out of love and ahead of, you know, I’m just, like, witnessing it, like I’m not there.

00:03:02:01 – 00:03:26:05

It’s like I’m invisible. And then, as you can imagine, with that, just come home. He lost his his partner, his friend is just this life would come home to a completely trashed house, just emptying and bits. Kids running around with dirty nappies. And now you could see stuff in state of Washington, eventually just snaps. And then they’re not just having this vile, abusive relationship.

00:03:26:13 – 00:03:46:21

there’s just violence every day. And that’s was the same with all of us. More particularly with me, because, at the end of the horrible beating they gave my mom, she told him that I wasn’t his son. Just, kind of try and stick a knife in, although I am. So it was just something that she wanted to try and help him with.

00:03:46:23 – 00:04:11:19

So, yeah, he’s very, focused on hurting me, I guess, more than the rest. Can you tell us about some of the incidents that occurred? Yeah. He smashed my mom’s head through the bathroom sink. through downstairs, through the patio window over here. Anywhere between 5 and 10. All the way from 5 to 10. So five years? Yeah.

00:04:11:19 – 00:04:34:14

What I can remember, I remember much before that, yeah. It was. Yeah, it was hard to go through the that side of things, but I think what was harder was when we was leaving constantly, you know, been waking up, woken up in the middle of the night by my mom, you know, face black and blue, and then she’s gonna leave it on leaving dad’s, can you gonna come with me?

00:04:34:14 – 00:04:51:07

And I’ll just call my eyes up and say, yeah, yeah. Oh, because I love my mom. You know, she was my everything. When? Before she was an alcoholic. You know, my dad just worked a lot and didn’t really see much of him. He did as much as he could with the energy I’d left. But mostly he was mom and I was very affectionate and so was my mom.

00:04:51:07 – 00:05:13:04

I was different to the rest. We both happily always. We lived like each other. So she was my my everything. So of course I would always go of, you know, and then got him going back. Excuse me. Coming back to him after a couple of months of being dragged into a hostel in the middle of the night, you know, beating up all the other kids that, you know, getting smashed in the face with mental problems for having kids.

00:05:13:06 – 00:05:35:24

You know, and these houses, these fossils are just sort of all the same type of situations is women fleeing abusive husbands, kids traumatized, broken. You put them together in a house. Is this a melting pot of abuse? Yeah. Me too. And I think I lost my sweetness. I lost I was a very light, sweet, lovely boy. Just loved nature.

00:05:35:24 – 00:05:52:10

I love kids, loved, animals and loved dogs. You know, dad used to be all the dogs, and I, we had to get rid of them. And then, you know, he’d get another one to kind of win back. You gone and get and, you know, leave him essentially. And then he did not beating that one off. And then we’d have to get rid of like ones.

00:05:52:11 – 00:06:08:06

It would turn violent or we had to put one down because it fits one of my brother’s best knives through the eggs. So boiling from the sea and locked it in between. My mom and dad, when they were 14, bit my mom on the breast. They fit my hand, but that through the hand, you know. So it was just.

00:06:08:08 – 00:06:25:17

Yeah, it was sad. you of those things just over and over again. I think what made it even harder, though, is that he really loves my older brother. So I kind of saw this ability that he had to actually be a decent. But I just never got to experience it. And I was just young and forever to try and have that one impression.

00:06:25:17 – 00:06:44:00

I think it was so driven to be successful was subconsciously. I always just wanted him to say, well done, I’m proud of you. And even when I had a multi-million pound turnover for the business, still never said it. So I was caught up. I kind of let go of that dream a long time ago, but I don’t think it ever goes to a certain extent.

00:06:44:00 – 00:07:02:00

You know, always when you passed, we found you were losing. You were looking for a recognition. Yeah. And, you know, it just never come. But yeah, I mean, that gives you a look snapshot of what it was like. It was. Yeah. It was hard. Is it was just trauma. How did that translate into going to school?

00:07:02:02 – 00:07:23:07

Yeah. My behavior was very, abnormal, I guess I was very distrusting of people. So I could never really have close friendships because I’d always end up sabotaging lots of self-satisfaction all the time. But also I was experiencing, you know, so much violence towards women. And I also hired a resentful mom, unfortunately. So they sort of developed a real big hatred for women.

00:07:23:07 – 00:07:37:13

So sort of got into fights with girls at school. I remember a girl told me I couldn’t dance once, so I just punched in the face. I just thought, absolutely, you know, that was that was was what you saw. Yeah. Yeah, I was on top. So I was, I was concerned that’s that’s how we treat you, you know.

00:07:37:13 – 00:08:05:10

So. Yes. Honest. Just, very broken little boy and just didn’t know no place in the world. Oh, and how did that journey take you into using coke and alcohol, etc.? I think the majority of people using drugs at a young age come from some sort of similar trauma. So you always attract what you. All I found in my life say you end up getting rejected by, you know, the kids who are saying normal.

00:08:05:10 – 00:08:23:15

You know, I have perhaps a more loving and stable environment that I grew up in. And your behavior is very abnormal to then and you get pushed away. So what happens is you have these group of kind of misfits, that kind of group together around taking drugs because we want to be normal. You know, before seeing jobs and being a drug user.

00:08:23:18 – 00:08:47:01

And my mom is also a pill addict. And then she was overdosed a lot as well. And that’s another thing I didn’t mention. You see, tried to commit suicide twice. She had to call the ambulance will, to send it to the hospital, and she’ll have come back. but yeah. So you you call to meet those people where you feel normal, that’s where you feel accepted and you can relate and identify with.

00:08:47:03 – 00:09:13:05

That’s not good. you you relate to these people. You relate to the fact that they’re like, they’re traumatized. and it doesn’t seem like a a bad thing to do drugs. It seems like, it’s a way to kind of be accepted as well. You know, you’ve you’ve not been accepted for so long, but then you finally find something that you can connect with people over and feel accepted by.

00:09:13:05 – 00:09:30:14

And I think a lot of time as well. I wanted to be friends with it because I know they wanted to smoke weed, and then they wanted to do coke, oil, money from a very young age. I found business when I was 15 and other boyfriends. It was a way for me to keep people around and feel like I was wanted.

00:09:30:14 – 00:09:47:18

To know that the only reason the majority of them would have is because of the substance that I was providing. But that’s all that did matter. I just didn’t really just didn’t leave be alone. Yeah, I can relate to that so much because I remember being, like ten years old. I’m much older than you, but I’m going to be ten years old.

00:09:47:18 – 00:10:03:21

And before I went to school and I would be at school at 7:00 in the morning so we wouldn’t be at home because of the violence and abuse. And I go to the corner shop, and I used to have money as well as a kid, and that’s been like a fire on sweets. And I drive to the school and get them sweets away, say very similar places.

00:10:03:24 – 00:10:24:15

You want to be loved. You want people to accept you. Yeah, you can be seen, you want attention. And yeah, well developed a really unhealthy relationship with women as well. You know, like I said, I had this massive resentment and hatred on one side, but also a huge dependency on trying to replace what I’ve lost at home. So trauma, being in love, you know, relationships with girls was incredibly hard because I didn’t want I didn’t trust them.

00:10:24:15 – 00:10:53:17

I didn’t respected or yearned for them. So it’s almost like I’d bring them in as close as I could, but never close enough. I don’t always keep something to hurt them with, to keep them away. So whether it be cheating on them, being dishonest or trying on a friend or, you know, just constantly pushing people away, whether that be the women I was dating or whether it would be friends as well, trying to keep with their girlfriends or just doing something dishonest and disloyal to make sure that nobody could get close.

00:10:53:19 – 00:11:12:07

And what age were you when you first started doing Coke? 15. Yeah, 15. and I loved it. I love the I love the feeling. it was with an older lad. I like the fact that I have all this obviously time frame. I like the fact that I was without a lot of photo accepted. Yeah, I felt accepted finally.

00:11:12:07 – 00:11:37:05

But. And I generally always held up, hang around with older people even from 15 onwards. but yeah, I just fallen into it. And that person, they were punching me in the face one point. So I started calling people, this is life attracts, you know, a lot of dysfunctional, broken people come from troubled homes and child lives and people who have low self-worth, low self-esteem, and they kind of group together for each other.

00:11:37:05 – 00:11:59:07

And that I feel alone and yeah, the misfits, they had the misfits? Yes. How quickly did your, usage of coke escalate? Yeah. So this is the thing. Like some people say, addiction happens very quickly. I’ve seen some people tell me within a year they were, doing cocaine. Cocaine every day. And that’s not how it happened for me.

00:11:59:07 – 00:12:22:15

You know, I was only 15, so I can afford to, I would say it started off very controlled using, I didn’t have a problem with it until I got till about, I want to say 18, 19. I know, I remember that. I remember when it happened because I started to want to sell it, and it lasted about a month because we did not.

00:12:22:15 – 00:12:43:23

And, I had gone from selling it to making a small profit, sniffing a bit and making, even less of profit to sniffing all the profit, to sniffing it all in four weeks, not giving a lot. Turn up late to work. I’ve been awake all night, nearly losing my job. and, yeah, that was the first time, because I think the big indicator is when you start doing alone.

00:12:44:00 – 00:13:03:19

Yes. That, for me, is the big change. You know, life is very different experience. and that was my first taste of doing it online. And then I stopped doing it weirdly for a year because I had to go home, because I had to change my job. So my money was went down and I had to go back to my dad’s house, which was just fucking vile.

00:13:04:07 – 00:13:28:08

and I needed to go there as soon as I could. So the desire to use was, is that the need to leave that house, you know, that superseded that. You know it? I needed to get out. And so, and I also for a year until I had enough money to go and have my house, amazing apartment on the corner of Sainsbury’s and Wilkins was just below the penthouse, looking out 20, 20 years old, I guess.

00:13:28:08 – 00:13:50:08

And yeah, and that’s when using come back and it’s been a really big sales and volume as well. Yeah. It’s just it’s everywhere in my sales environment, especially when they’re male dominated. So yeah that was a service for people. Some people yes. It was like that. I’m not functional at home and I’m binge. so functioning addicts are very different to me.

00:13:50:08 – 00:14:18:05

I don’t understand them. I must say I was functioning, but it’s interesting what you say, because I think the journey for so many people is what you just said. It starts off socially, gradually, and then eventually it becomes so anti-social that you end up doing it when you are that you don’t want to go out. I think that’s why so many people, but I have seen patients who, I can think of one lady, for example, where she was 35 years old and never used before when that was a sister use.

00:14:18:05 – 00:14:38:10

Once at the very next day she went and bought again. The next day, the next day, the next day, the next day. And in from the get go she was done. She was dead. But that’s very unusual for me, probably. And I think I actually put a video on Tik Tok, about a year ago. And I said, you know, how long from started did it become a problem when it was such a regular occurrence?

00:14:38:12 – 00:14:58:11

And it went from a week, a month, but the average period of time was two years. And the period time was it for you. But for for years, I’d say it from, because I wasn’t using it in any consistent fashion until the age of about 18, 1819, when I could afford to. And then it become a weekly thing.

00:14:58:11 – 00:15:21:18

And but it’s almost 21. It wasn’t just weekly. It was, you know, 3 or 4 times a week, but it’s almost 23. Game 23 was where, yeah, it went wrong, really. For me, that was when I started using as much as possible and then lost my business, then 24, 24 to 26. But in some of the worst years of my life.

00:15:21:20 – 00:15:44:09

Yeah, 24, maybe 27. yeah. 24 to 27 for you. Much more than that. Half of it. But I lost my business and I was gone. I lost my position in the business, but I still owned it, so I still gained a difference. So I no job and 2020 grand coming in every three months. Just fucking addict do with that.

00:15:44:11 – 00:16:02:19

And yeah I lost I lost all and I just spent nearly two years not really leaving the house. staying away for six, seven days at a time, miss a beat, having to drink alcohol just to be around my son and myself to do. What was that I have just to feel normal enough to actually engage with them.

00:16:02:21 – 00:16:26:13

And that was on a rare occasion. Normally I was just deeply upset in another way, just by myself, because I was so I felt so disgusted with myself. At that point. I just couldn’t bear to be around him. I was obsessed. If I needed to do anything with the kids, I would be washing my hands 10 or 15 times, because I just was so terrified that I’d have coke on my hands and, they would somehow get in contact with it one time and, passed out.

00:16:26:13 – 00:16:47:16

So I’ve been away for so long in the living room, but when they’ve gone to bed and misses at the time, I had to clear up an acre coke off the floor because basically the kids would have come in and seen it. And so it’s lucky that she got off as normally Archie would have been the first one out, but she managed to get up and pick it up, clean up and about to hop back to that hotel and they’re getting ready for school.

00:16:47:16 – 00:17:21:13

I’m just passed out and shit. And most of all, we use used. Yeah, having a baby. At that point, it was. 4 to 7g a day. Wow. Yeah. As a lot. And then alcohol to try and level yourself off alcohol to level myself off as well. So kids, otherwise I wouldn’t I would do it with colleagues. They barely got the balance right, but I’d normally get a of how it used to be when I get home from work or like a whole bottle of Disaronno me, and then I’d sniff a whole gram in a line and that would start off at that point.

00:17:21:18 – 00:17:37:17

And so right then it very quickly, within 30 minutes, just I just was feeling paranoid and delusional and scared and I just try and drink as much as I could. But then eventually the coke consumes you and you can’t drink anymore. For me anyway, I couldn’t drink because I just all I could do is just be more like I was.

00:17:37:17 – 00:18:05:17

It was just a normal. It was just, yeah, insanity. At that point, you just hearing and seeing things on there which I still in the shot him in, fucking makes me feel terrified. She likes to see, like, shadow hands coming out of my covers. the wardrobe sliding the doors. And I still think they were. They were putting their hands up in the doorway with my girlfriend at the time touching her, and I’d be all feeling like I’ll be touching down this on an iPad on this whole thing, and I touch it just making sure that on that.

00:18:05:22 – 00:18:23:07

And this would go on for days and days or not. She’d go to work, come back, go to sleep, and I’d still be awake and still the same thing over the whole night. Like on my phone to do a line turn off, seeing the pitch like, yeah, it’s funny, because I had a patient the other day say something very, very similar.

00:18:23:09 – 00:18:39:24

He lives at home with his parents, and he does it when he’s out. And he comes home with a line, for example, and his parents asleep in the room next door, and he locks his door. But because his parents were next door is pitch black and use the light. Puts a straw in the bag, turns the light on under the cover.

00:18:40:04 – 00:19:01:04

Completely paranoid. It’s insane. Yeah, it’s. And you’re tiptoeing as well. This is early tip time in house, so to make a noise. So this one isn’t. I’ll be doing this, but there’s no one in the house. So if I try to be quiet for the end of the insanity as well, looking for something. So I always sell enough cigarets.

00:19:01:06 – 00:19:21:03

And then I would search my house upside down. Every pillow, every cupboard, every drawer, bed turned up. Whole house just ransacked for a cigaret. But halfway through it I forget what I was looking for. But keep looking. So you’re on there obsessing over an empty house and pulling everything. And Paul, until you figure out what the fuck it is.

00:19:21:03 – 00:19:39:22

But I can’t stop myself from physically doing. I’m so engaged in it and so just consumed by what I’m doing. I have no idea what the fucking agenda is, and the whole purpose of what I’m doing is, how did you work out to that? I mean, I said, never married, but are you? Go figure. I didn’t kill Frank over that.

00:19:39:24 – 00:20:03:01

Well, yeah, she she was using a bit as well. I think eventually she kind of did that to cope with me, you know, because I was just so insane. Move back in time. And I was a terrible partner to to my son’s mum. she went over to tell I we were never really in love. I just, I wanted I wanted her to let me go.

00:20:03:01 – 00:20:27:14

And she never quit. And I just carried on doing the worst things ever to try and get her to leave me. So. So. Yeah, but this was an intentional one, though it is a subconscious law, generally, I wasn’t happy and every time I tried to move on, it was always, stalking and harassing. And it goes always ended up back with, just sort of somebody else, but, you know, then another girl, lovely girlfriend.

00:20:27:15 – 00:20:47:20

I had, she didn’t actually use and then she started using because of me and then got addicted. So, you know, I can’t ruin another guy’s life. But she was by consent of our guy, which is all good. there’s a happy life, and she’s getting married, so luckily, I think it was too much damage. But, yeah, as you know, we we want to take prisoners with us as addicts.

00:20:47:20 – 00:21:19:08

You know, we don’t want to do it alone. And we don’t really care about the consequences. It’s very narcissistic addiction. You just turn into emotionless and feeling the selfish asshole. And what about when you then start another business and you were financially being successful since being clean? Yeah, she’s being saved. Yeah. So that’s us going okay. Yeah. How do you how do you cope with the fact that you now have money to burn, so to speak, and that you would have used, but now you don’t use?

00:21:19:10 – 00:21:38:00

I still like to spend my money. you know, I’ve got a soft spot for expensive things, you know, a lot of nice car and shoes and wallets, bags and watches and stuff like that. And that’s gone out. Really? Sorry. There’s nothing wrong with that. Not so much. No. The reason, I mean, I’m not really very one now, but,

00:21:38:05 – 00:21:55:09

Yes, I do like nice things. I like abundance, but I’m not dependent on it. This is the difference. You know, I used to buy these things because I thought they maybe look good. Now I’m going things because I like them. And if I lost them, it would mean shit. But, you know, back in the day when I lost my business, I lost, you know, everything I had.

00:21:55:11 – 00:22:14:17

It ripped my entire life apart, lost all. I had invested more entire worth into the success that I have made around me, into the material or the physical. And then when it was. That’s a very fragile existence. Because you’re not really in control of that. Not entirely. You know, anything can change in the world, you know, disrupt most businesses.

00:22:14:17 – 00:22:41:17

So the minute that’s taken for me, like it was for me, that was why those years were the worst two years, because I just felt so broken and so lost and so alone. And like, I’ve lost everything and everything, so nothing. So now my worth isn’t rooted in in anything I’ve created externally. My worth is, I’d say, based upon how much I invest into myself, mentally and spiritually on a daily basis, because it can’t be taken for me.

00:22:41:17 – 00:22:59:00

So in this moment is no one can ever take that away from me anymore. I ended up living in a one bedroom flat and struggling or not always have that. So yeah, it’s the option to use as well. Even though I’ve got money. That’s just ridiculous thought to me. I just couldn’t imagine if you use it ever again.

00:22:59:02 – 00:23:22:24

Is it? Of course. Such, the whole point. Just just turn you off, slice. Sorry for a second. It’s what you said I can’t imagine ever using again, which is a profoundly wonderful statement. but where you journey, did you suddenly feel that? When did you suddenly where did that suddenly kick in and go? I know I’m not just saying that again because all that excitement.

00:23:22:24 – 00:23:45:19

Right? But actually believing, knowing, being a core part of you, at what point you journey, when did that happen? Sadly, a come the cost of my son’s, well-being, I guess because I it was only when I had him so badly that I realized enough was enough. How do you mean? How did you hurt so bad? Because we were,

00:23:45:21 – 00:24:04:00

This was what made me go to be happy. This is what made made everything change. This was the thing and was enough. You know? Losing the business wasn’t enough. You know, I myself wasn’t enough. But, yeah, that was different story for me because I saw myself. I saw the child that lost his mom in him. I love work that leads to it.

00:24:04:03 – 00:24:24:09

And it was when we were practicing, you know, despite being in use, I still did a lot of things as a father with him to try to be as consistent as I could. And then I soon finished gymnastics competition. And every day it was really, really important to him that, you know, we practice it and then the day before the competition, you know, especially go to school, get on the bus, going to this event.

00:24:25:00 – 00:24:40:15

and so this is the, you know, it’s this competition. And I used the not for all the way through. It always ends up like that as well. Whenever there’s a big event, some that you’re supposed to show up for, there’s always something like, oh, well I don’t know what that’s about, but, and I used all my friends in the morning.

00:24:40:19 – 00:24:59:10

Couldn’t bear. I could barely speak. His mom’s calling me screaming down the phone, and, it’s called calling me, just to fight off. And I just said, Archie, I’m really sorry that we’re gonna have to stay home today. And being the loving son that it was, he said, I say that, you know, I just wanna be with you anyway.

00:24:59:12 – 00:25:15:14

Spent the rest of that day saying would be on the sofa in and out of consciousness, only really having any attention when he woke me up for something to eat and the next day you went to school. So, that night he went back to his mom’s, and the next day he went to school for a day, would come to mom.

00:25:15:16 – 00:25:38:20

And then when you come through the door, he seems to have held it together until this point, because when he went through, he seemed okay. And then I said, how was your day? And then that was it. He just broke into tears. He, for Jesus, he would have been five. Okay. Yeah. He just he broke into tears and said, did he get a medal?

00:25:39:00 – 00:26:02:19

Everybody else had and it was a small competition and he just they had quite a size. And that was. Yeah, it was one of the hardest things I ever saw. Probably one of the best things you ever. So yeah, it’s always one son. Yeah. It’s it’s just the first one I ever really witnessed. the level of which my problem was had the consequences.

00:26:02:19 – 00:26:21:07

It was the first time I had really witnessed consequences. I sort of made because, you know, adults, they have an option. You know, my ex, she had an option to leave, you know, so she chose to be with me. That’s she’s got equal responsibility as far as I’m concerned. And staying with an addict who’s annoyed with, you know, leave, you know.

00:26:21:08 – 00:26:44:18

And so what do you think of it? Kids don’t have a choice. I agree, I agree, but sometimes, a partner can be so deeply off that they want to save you. And then. And sometimes if they just leave you, could that not be seen as well? They’ve abandoned me as well. What hope is I got. Yeah, I mean I, I perhaps I can use that to describe my own experience with it.

00:26:44:18 – 00:27:02:21

She could have left and would have left. There was no way that anybody should stay with me. I wasn’t a good. I wasn’t a good part of. It wasn’t just my addiction. You know? You always know I was not equipped to deal with love. I was not equipped to deal with commitment to another. Another female was not was not a good partner for anyone.

00:27:02:21 – 00:27:21:17

And anyone could see that. Although there was a really lovely side to me that came up now and again, and I guess that gave people hope that that I would remain that person that I could never be consistently because I was terrified of being that person. That’s the that was the real me, that being that person left me vulnerable and open to pain.

00:27:21:19 – 00:27:39:02

So, you know, as a kid, I had to not be sensitive, to not be emotional. Before I cried, I got hit harder. So it was very quick to shut that part of myself off. And that happened when I went to the that was, you know, what changed? I was almost in that sweet boy and was I was angry.

00:27:39:04 – 00:28:04:23

I guess I was just always conflicted. I always have these two parts in me, the person I was created to be safe and the person who I really was. And what happened to you? Try those people that you that you used with can tell you you just moved away from them. Yeah, yeah. I was I mean, you know, looking back to my childhood, I have know anyone really from my childhood, some of them that I know, 1 or 2 lads gone but barely remain in touch with their thinking about the ones you used with.

00:28:05:01 – 00:28:25:00

Yeah, yeah. No talking about. Yeah. These are the same people that I used to have growing up. I, I don’t really know any of them. And 1 or 2 years old got that old, probably speak to one and, but that’s maybe once a year because he, you know, they’re still in that life. But as soon as I come out of rehab this time around, like, like I said, that moment with Archie was the moment that I knew it had to change.

00:28:25:00 – 00:28:45:10

And I went to rehab about a month later, but I. And I didn’t stop necessarily using them. I knew going to be happens when I was going to stop, but I knew it had to change. I knew that this was this was the end of that part of my life because I had a choice. You know, I, you know, to about a week or so later from that incident or I was I was still used and I told his mom, I can’t see you.

00:28:45:12 – 00:29:06:04

That was deal with it. I can not see him. I can not face that. So I knew I wasn’t fit to be his dad right now. And then I was using constantly for the next week or so, and and I just woke up one morning after how many days awake and just looked at myself in the mirror. Generally, just school is this is it like if you’re going to kill yourself right now?

00:29:06:06 – 00:29:27:04

Or I knew I’d make city attempts at, you know, overdoses and 20 pounds nights coke and ended up in hospital few times. But there was never always control. My body could take it because my body was just incredibly good at consuming jobs and things pretty for my mum. but this time was the first time I genuinely thought, this is something that I want to do.

00:29:27:06 – 00:29:48:04

And it was either that or choose a nearby slave. And again, the only reason that I found the reason I the only thing that I could find reason to live for that moment was here. No, I couldn’t even I could his life would be so different without, you know, and he would go down the same path that I did, maybe less so that was it.

00:29:48:04 – 00:30:09:21

That was the thing that made me go. And I knew that it was at the age of 22. It was he went to rehab. 29. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was that was a turning point. That was it. Yeah. That was it. Five years ago last month. Very good. Five years last month. Yeah yeah sure man. So how has your life changed now that you’ve clean, sober and free?

00:30:09:23 – 00:30:35:20

Oh it’s changed so much. You know, it’s change year to year. You know, the first year was incredibly hard. You know, when you stopped I feel lost, have been taken. Taking drugs is the easy bit, you know, is is facing yourself after that. That’s that’s that you’re still left with a really broken human being, you know, not just for the things that you did throughout your addiction, because you got to cope and process and deal with all of the things that you’ve done.

00:30:35:22 – 00:30:55:15

But then also what happened to you in the first place that that made you an addict, that made you susceptible to to addiction? Because generally the reason you I don’t know if you agree or not that every single addict has one thing in common that I’ve ever seen is this low self-worth insecurity that a lot some form of self-hatred and that always comes from somewhere.

00:30:55:15 – 00:31:22:20

And you got to come back, back and deal with that as well. And for some people, the bigger incidents, that was for me, it was five, six, seven years of trauma that I had to go and relive and face each and every single moment. So yes, it was wonderful to be clean. It felt great. but the work that I’ve had to do throughout, especially the first year, you know, I spent a week in bed crawling through, open it up, doing some therapy and actually feeling on it, like what it was like to be that boy.

00:31:22:20 – 00:31:40:02

That’s all witnessing that, because as a child, you just you just disconnect. You learn. You the brain doesn’t really people ability to to help you in that way even as a child because it would just be unbearable for me to experience what was physically and emotionally at that point, to actually process that as a 7 or 8 year old boy.

00:31:40:02 – 00:31:59:20

It’s just impossible. So my trying to figure out what that thing is, I had to turn that mechanism off. And when you do that, it’s overwhelming and it’s fucking brutal, brutally painful to stop experience in those moments again and reliving it and doing it. And you just it’s the last thing you want to do. You if anything, you just want to bury head in the sand what you always have.

00:32:00:01 – 00:32:16:21

No, you can’t. And you got to keep going. And every single day, every single week, get up and do the same processes and learning different things and how to heal and how to manage yourself and constantly looking at the behaviors that you got, the thoughts that you have, all of it. I know all of it. Stuff that you don’t want, all of it things that you want to change.

00:32:16:23 – 00:32:37:22

And this never ended. So my life externally is beautiful. The love that I have is in abundance with fossil fuel inside. So for that I. I’m so, so grateful. But it’s a challenge. How’s your relationship with your son now? So yes. And he’s my best friend is my he’s my everything. And he’s just I’m so, so proud of him.

00:32:37:22 – 00:32:57:04

He’s so much better than I never was. You know, he’s so all I ever want is for him to be the best version of himself. And to be better than I ever could have been. And he’s already there, you know, in every aspect, you know, as a as a human being, as a young man, as a football, as a student, you know, as a son, you know, he’s he’s just better on every single platform.

00:32:57:04 – 00:33:23:01

So, you know, I just couldn’t be more proud of him or really could. And he’s so intelligent as well. But I think, you know, I try my best to be a good father by being the best me not necessarily telling him how to be because he’s going to innately copy everything I do. So if I’m not showing up for myself every single day, I’m not prioritizing self-worth and and hearing and growing and being the best me, then he’s not going to do that, you know?

00:33:23:01 – 00:33:39:23

So I always think of the best way to parent is to parent yourself, you know, and then he would just be. And yet I hope that, you know, the damage I caused in the first six years of his life doesn’t end up causing him harm as he gets older, as and I hope maybe it will always be that I’ll be there to help him through every bit of it.

00:33:39:23 – 00:34:01:23

And from what I can see, though, I think I call it just just in time. I know was speaking before we came in the studio where you were on today, and you were telling me about the things that you do almost on a daily basis. You have a routine, a strategy to ensure you keep clean and just share with the listeners what your routine about things you do.

00:34:01:23 – 00:34:18:15

Also. Yeah, so I wake up every morning and normally at the same time, 6:00 if I’m having a language block and once a week off to a two, I’ll sleep two seven and then we six. Every day I don’t look at my phone or any technology or anything. I go straight into another room. I like some palo santo.

00:34:19:00 – 00:34:44:08

I do a little prayer, I’ll do meditation, I’ll then do yoga. I’ll then journal and then I’ll read, and then I’ll do an ice bath and then I’ll take a handful of vitamins. And that’s my morning every day, every single day. And I’ve been doing that consistently now for the last I’d say 18 months. And prior to that I’ve always been doing those things I would just say always haven’t done all of them every day.

00:34:44:19 – 00:35:04:08

so, so yeah, that’s that’s the level of work that I know. Say, therapy every single week. I did for four years and for the last year I’ve done therapy once a month, a two hour session as opposed to 50 minutes. So, so, yeah, that works at random. You know, it’s never going to stop, and, might stop and change things out like I used to do breathwork.

00:35:04:08 – 00:35:26:13

I did that every day for two years. I swapped out for yoga. I think it’s good to invite new things in to see what changes they make. And, it can become a bit mundane. Do the same thing. But honestly, it’s so hard. It’s so hard. Regardless of what’s happening in your life, whether you are under a lot of stress, a lot of pressure in any other area to just be consistent about it, or sometimes you just don’t want to do it.

00:35:26:15 – 00:35:42:08

You just you just think, I just want to shut the well off today and yesterday. But because you do it consistently in the good days, I find, you know, in life is, well, things are easy then one of the things that’s with the chips are down. That’s what we’re going through a difficult moment in your life. Whatever it may be.

00:35:42:10 – 00:35:55:17

You’re so used to the routine, you’re so consistent at it that you just pull yourself. You pull yourself right, and you go for it and you do it. I think sometimes when you don’t feel like doing it, some of the best times that you do do it. Absolutely. It’s life. And it’s like going to the gym life.

00:35:55:21 – 00:36:15:13

Sometimes you just don’t feel like going to the gym. But yet you can have one of the best workouts in your life. And that’s exactly the same thing, right? I think. So I think it’s more important that you do it when you’re not well or you’re feeling a lot in, like if you’ve got physical wellness, but as in if you’re mentally unwell, you’re struggling emotionally with something that’s going on in your life.

00:36:15:15 – 00:36:33:03

That’s when you need to show up. And I think this is kind of a big misconception about when you are in those situations, you should just rest or you should just kind of give it take it easy and and not. Some people I know, you say, oh yeah, I just I get depressed. So I’ll just switch off. I have a week where I’m just not doing anything.

00:36:33:03 – 00:36:47:00

I’m staying in bed and I just eat shit food and I’ll tell you this, and I’m just like, that’s the opposite of what you should do, in my opinion. I just think that’s absurd. I think that if anything, this is where you’ve really got to show up for yourself. Don’t let yourself down. It takes a lot of energy to be depressed.

00:36:47:02 – 00:37:04:10

Yeah. And I think if anything you can we think it’s prolonging it. And I think some people will accept that depression is part of their personality. And I don’t agree with that. I think they’re just all I know. Well, I’m going to get depressed. So I just kind of see it come in and then I allow it to come and I just see myself through it, and then eventually I’m out of it again.

00:37:04:16 – 00:37:22:01

I’m not doing anything to understand why not doing anything to heal or stop, it’ll prevent it from happening in the future. They just all say that anxiety. I think. I think anxiety is, you know, supporting the Des Moines and it can be cured if you understand the reason everybody thinks anxiety is a problem with the future. Being scared of what’s happened, I don’t agree.

00:37:22:01 – 00:37:42:11

I think anxiety is something that happened in the past, this major fight of the future. So to hear anxiety, you can look back at that, figure out what it is that happened. And when you’ve done that, the overlay into the fears and anxieties that you have today, it won’t be. And then you can understand it’s not about the present moment is, oh, okay, but don’t need to feel anxious.

00:37:42:11 – 00:37:55:15

I’m just worried about the fact that my mom’s going away and and I been it’s over time. This person even means that I they are going to come back. They all come out. I don’t need to feel anxious, you know? I mean, that’s why I did it because I suffered massively, almost abuse and drugs and. Oh yeah, I just work back.

00:37:55:15 – 00:38:14:10

I work back and figure all these things out. So yeah, there’s just there’s so much work that everybody can do and nobody’s incapable of doing all this work. It’s just a decision. It’s actually writing a self-help book on addiction. is that you finally, like, starting experience for yourself? Oh, do you know what? I find it effortless.

00:38:14:16 – 00:38:33:11

It just pours. Will have me, and I’ll enjoy it. I mean, I’ve written nine chapters in about three months. It’s just been to me too easy to to write. And I think it’s going to be so, so helpful for people to pick up a book. That one is written in a way that they can understand. It’s not like overly vocabulary wise.

00:38:33:11 – 00:39:09:22

It’s not like really hard to grasp. And it’s written in a way, you know, the I speak so that anybody can understand it really, and they can see my, my, my process of how I’ve changed and how I’ve healed and how also traumas have affected me as a child, how they have manifested into behaviors as an adult and then how I’ve overcome them, you know, and and so I’m giving people real life examples of, of things that they will be able to relate to and actions and behaviors that they might have in themselves, and then show them where I looked to for the answer and then showing them the process of which I’d use to

00:39:09:22 – 00:39:29:11

to overcome and to change and to walk. Right. Same from how young is, I am what I choose to be. I know I’m not. I know what happened to me. I am what I chose to become. And I am now, as more and more of what I choose to become, the more I was made to be. And I show people how to do that.

00:39:29:17 – 00:39:52:23

That’s what the book is going to be about, I hope. And yeah, there’s loads of different processes and things that you can go through in, you know, whether it be from therapy as a whole, chapter on therapy, how I engage with therapists and everything I learned from that process. There’s a chapter on spirituality and everything I’ve learned about that and how it’s changed my life, and meditation, breathwork and ice baths and all the concepts behind all those things and what they work.

00:39:53:08 – 00:40:12:09

so yeah, I’m excited about the book, to be honest with you. I think it’s going to be amazing. What’s your opinion on nature or nurture? like the fact that I had a was this a genetic predisposition? Was it the way it was in the environment? Was it the abuse? How do you feel for like generalizing addiction?

00:40:12:11 – 00:40:33:18

I genuinely I genuinely think that people become addicted because drugs give them something that they didn’t have before. It’s the only reason because you never find somebody who’s who’s completely secure within themselves. Or at least I have them and they become addicts because when they take drugs, it doesn’t give them anything. It doesn’t like some nice people. I take a kind of a drink, alcohol.

00:40:33:18 – 00:40:56:07

It might give them confidence. I mean, it will give them an addiction. Something where it makes them feel better than what they were before. As in, they feel like they’re a better version of themselves with it than with ours. Therefore, the necessity to keep using starts to creep in. Yeah, it’s true, but I think sometimes too they can also be a confident person, but using makes me even more confident.

00:40:56:09 – 00:41:17:07

I know a few people in the life of some of the party, like people who are like in charge of the rugby team, like they’re the confident and they’re out there and they’ve got loads of friends on the outside. Okay, we know on the outside. Yeah, but but they you, when you use, they have a good phone with their friends that they started using because they have fun with their friends and, but then eventually they become something.

00:41:17:07 – 00:41:38:15

You become. You need you have a compulsion to use or you just discard them. So that’s exactly how it was even before I of using. So I started working in the market. So when it came to me to communicate really well, deep down I’m insecure, broken, low self-worth, self-hatred from the child. I had subconsciously didn’t know any of that.

00:41:38:15 – 00:42:00:06

So. But I’d created this confident character. So yes. So it’s very easy to see I perceive someone as that boy. I was not confident I was, and since I stopped taking drugs and I started working on myself, I became extremely withdrawn from, you know, social environments and situations because I felt way less comfortable. The mask is off. This is the real me.

00:42:00:06 – 00:42:19:24

I’m vulnerable. Absolutely. But this is the thing as well. It wasn’t just when I used, you know, this this character was in play all the time. And I think that’s why you end up having to use jokes because the show can’t go on. It’s impossible to maintain that level of, deception for the majority of your life. You know, you’re you’re constantly hiding from yourself and deep down, subconsciously, you know that.

00:42:20:01 – 00:42:39:00

So as much as you want to keep the show going on, it’s exhausting because you know, it’s not real. You know, none of these things that people think about, you are real, and there’s no way you can avoid the truth. So the drugs enable you to carry on. You know, they manage, they they help you cope with the ignorance that you need to kind of have to yourself.

00:42:39:00 – 00:43:02:13

They they block everything out. But and eventually, you know, nice to work and to and that’s when it’s, that’s when it’s time to even die or live in general in any way. But to answer your question about nature versus nurture. Is a hard one, because I know people have had really lovely, wonderful upbringings, but I don’t think that a lovely, beautiful childhood stopped you being an addict.

00:43:02:17 – 00:43:25:01

I agree, I definitely doesn’t, but one thing I will say is the even if you have that lovely childhood, something somewhere can happen in your life. A relationship, a friendship, someone bullies you. Whatever it is, something happens that triggers a low self-worth or self-hatred or that I am not enough. And as soon as that I’m not enough.

00:43:25:13 – 00:43:42:13

thought has cemented in your mind there’s a belief about yourself, then you are susceptible to addiction. And I don’t think that is anything to do with nature versus nurture. That’s. Well, I guess it is environment. So it is call to nurture, but it’s not to do. That wasn’t to do with the parents, you know, that was they had a lovely upbringing.

00:43:42:13 – 00:44:04:00

And I just met a terrible person and I beat the shit out of them, abused them and made them feel worthless. And then from that point onwards, you know, their lives changed forever. You know, that’s true. I mean, I did, go on a podcast. Sorry, an interview with, Professor John Marston, who’s head of addiction for the psychiatry and psychology department at King’s University.

00:44:04:02 – 00:44:25:18

And he was talking about how there is a mark on him that they have found of a genetic marker. That means you have a predisposition to become a to have an addict, to be so. And in the same way that someone with blue eyes like us. So this is as more of a genetic predisposition for alcohol because of the chromosome change.

00:44:25:20 – 00:44:43:02

So I think there’s a slight genetic marker in there. But I think I think it’s more of the nurturing I think is more of the upbringing. I think that’s so upsetting and more of an impact in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t necessarily just say or label it towards the parents or the upbringing. It is just it’s environment.

00:44:43:02 – 00:45:08:17

Yeah, absolutely. It’s environment. So it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s of us humans. You know, we make up our, opinion of ourselves and how we feel about ourselves predominantly from three things hereditary, you know, see your parents environment, your surroundings, urine and suggestion of others. And you have the world around you here. Definitely. So we are flawed in that respect, but equal suggestion, influence, privilege.

00:45:08:17 – 00:45:29:12

Yeah. Yeah. So we’re flawed in that respect because it’s it’s the wrong way. You know. So we basically growing up our whole lives taking the opinion of others to determine how we feel about ourselves. So that’s that’s where the problem lies. So that encounter can happen anywhere at any point in anyone’s life. So, you know, someone won’t have up until they’re 20, the most perfect and ideal life.

00:45:29:14 – 00:45:46:05

But then they make someone toxic who completely sabotages that. And their lives changed forever. You know, one of my friends of insight, I can speak freely about her. You know, she had the authentic life. She didn’t have a real dad, but she had to step down. She quit that beautiful childhood and she loved him. Said it was obvious she had everything she could ever want.

00:45:46:07 – 00:46:10:05

But 13 she was, Killed on a pedophile cruise? Yeah. The strange part. Before he was 19, she ended up getting pregnant and abused. And it changed you know, just like that, a birth changed. You know, she went from feeling loved, cared for and left to something, I don’t know. This happens a lot with people who have been a victim of sex abuse as a young age.

00:46:10:07 – 00:46:35:00

Dirty, disgusting. And that’s self-hatred. And those are the people, regardless of what stage of life that’s happened in their life, in my opinion, they’re the ones that are susceptible to addiction more than anyone else, because when they give it, it gives them two things an escape and something they didn’t have before. You know, they they don’t have to feel the pain or that dirtiness anymore or, you know, you don’t have to feel shy or like you’re not good enough because you can just be this other person quite easily with these drugs.

00:46:35:01 – 00:46:53:16

I need to keep doing this. People like me more when I do this. You know, you you convince yourself of this story. That’s just not true. And I look back at my behavior as a when I was used and I was awful, you know, but at the time, it convinces you that you see things and at that time you feel it’s the only way to cope with certain situations.

00:46:53:18 – 00:47:09:15

Now, given the stress, lack of money, success. Yeah, yeah, I salute, you know, it’s a celebration and it’s a way to relieve stress. It’s everything. You know, it’s your answer. If you becomes your friend that you go to is the one that’s with you all the time. I, I use this analogy as if you say your friend.

00:47:09:16 – 00:47:28:08

I use this analogy sometimes. I say it’s a bit like being in a relationship, right? Like when you meet a girl or boy, it depends which way you are, right. You need a girl that’s like, you know, the relationship isn’t right. You’re arguing it’s toxic and but you don’t leave the next day, right? It’s often months or years before you leave a relationship, you know isn’t right.

00:47:29:01 – 00:47:47:22

And it’s the same thing with time. Time. you know it’s a bad relationship because it’s a year before you get out of the relationship. I think cocaine is more cunning. So cocaine doesn’t give you the red flags well either. So sometimes, you know, you say some relationships, some relationships, but a lot of a lot of time we ignore red flags because we don’t wanna be alone.

00:47:47:22 – 00:48:10:20

If especially if you’re dependent on, you know, the attention or the love of another, you ignore red flags and you think, oh, I can change them. I can help them. You know, this is a project. You know, I have to say, we’re talking about myself here as well. That’s kind of thing I used to do, with the drugs is very just, discreet and, you know, and subtle and it happens over time, you know, you don’t see consequences using cocaine for the first 3 or 4 years time.

00:48:10:20 – 00:48:26:02

So I didn’t, you know, I was using for a day sometimes on Saturday. Got to work on a Monday smashing off. That’s what happens in the beginning I was so I mean, so it’s more than that, you know, I mean, you don’t see yourself, you know, red flags and and suddenly you’re three by three. Second Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, on Monday.

00:48:26:02 – 00:48:45:03

He’s. Because you missed it. How the fuck did bad. So I mean so that’s that’s the difference I guess in that analogy is that, you know, cocaine is is such a great job at the beginning because it doesn’t really have that many consequences other than maybe a bit of sleep deprivation, but it cures hangovers, stops you being drunk, you know, makes you feel more confident.

00:48:45:03 – 00:48:58:14

You know, all of these things. You think the okay. Yeah. Why do once I get people want to take everything is nothing comes to free. There’s no cheats, there’s no shortcuts in life. You know, if you want confidence, you got to earn it. You got to grow. You got to. You got to find out. When you’re not confident.

00:48:58:14 – 00:49:22:07

You know you can’t just take this magic pill. If it was, everyone would do it without some consequence. It universe doesn’t work that way. It will come back to collect and it will take your life to work. Magic pills. I ask this question actually about two years ago, maybe 18 months ago. And so, I said, if you could take a pill, stopped you ever using cocaine again, would you take it?

00:49:22:09 – 00:49:41:23

Well, I wouldn’t need to go. for in those throws, would you take it? I would, yeah, definitely. but I hear the point where I see the consequences because I want to stop using those 24, you know, that’s it. Before there’s. So. Yes. All the deciding between, you know, I spent 22. I said, okay, yeah, it’s another one for me.

00:49:42:00 – 00:50:07:00

Let’s go the other side. So I always ask all my guests the very same last question. What advice would you give to anybody listening right now who’s struggling with addiction to cocaine? That is okay. And, you know, life and the it will be okay. It will be okay if you are willing. If it will, it hurts enough.

00:50:07:00 – 00:50:21:15

And if you’re in enough pain right now, then you’re coming to the end of your use. And so I always go to what people stop using only when they’re ready. You know this. And inevitably, you know, when they get to that moment. And I spoke to everyone Friday. So whatever words we have, they will say the same thing.

00:50:21:15 – 00:50:39:03

This happened, this happened. I got to this place in my life and it’s coming. If it’s on, your agenda is coming. And if you’re failing, don’t kill yourself. As in don’t beat yourself up for every single day. Don’t sabotage self. Don’t beat yourself up. This is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do in my life, you know?

00:50:39:04 – 00:50:57:09

And the work is continuous. All of that. But but to me, it’s worth it. It is so worth it. My life is so, so different today. You know, people talk about, you know, do you miss this? Do you miss that? Absolutely fucking no, not I couldn’t think of anything worse than sitting in between four different walls every other weekend.

00:50:57:15 – 00:51:12:10

Sitting little girl. It’s always is. In the event of a decade of paranoid check in the cameras getting about to do another life. Yeah, but I mean, even the drinking side of it, you know, people go clubbing and stuff like that. Like I can dance, but I don’t need to drink a lot. I go outside environments. Not enough to embarrass myself anymore.

00:51:12:14 – 00:51:33:17

I’m not even. I even desire to be in that environment. You know, there’s so much more to life than alcohol and drugs, but life is just full of love and happiness and experience and just wonder, you know? And you, you’re missing. You’re missing it right now. So don’t be worried about the change because, oh God, you never look back and see.

00:51:33:19 – 00:51:54:21

Zack. Thank you for coming clean. You mean we welcome. Thanks for having me done nice full days work done. So we get very good night. Zack says you should have been minute I was here. Or if I was here. Yeah, if I had to go back there.