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Transcript
00:00:05:12 – 00:00:31:09
Elliott Wald
Hello. My name is Elliott Ward addiction specialist. And welcome to Coming clean with me. And today, my special guest in the studio is Tal Booker. Tal is 30 years old, formerly a fashion accessory designer, and now he’s a thriving creative tattoo artist. Not only that, I’d say he’s an artist. So Tal, thank you for coming here today.
00:00:31:12 – 00:00:39:15
Elliott Wald
Appreciate you being in the studio. So let’s just dive straight in. Tell me about, you know, growing up, what it was like where you grew up.
00:00:39:18 – 00:01:05:24
Tal
I grew up in a loving family. A family of three boys. For a long time. I was the middle of two brothers. my sister came along when I think I was. I was 12. lived in North London. Both parents were relatively present. worked a lot, you know, Never. Never kind of lacked anything, to my knowledge.
00:01:05:26 – 00:01:11:27
Tal
And, yeah, it was. It was, from what I remember, a relatively happy childhood.
00:01:12:03 – 00:01:13:27
Elliott Wald
Had quite a tight family. Yeah.
00:01:14:00 – 00:01:14:13
Tal
For sure.
00:01:14:19 – 00:01:19:01
Elliott Wald
Okay. And tell me about when you when did you first start using and how that came about.
00:01:19:04 – 00:01:41:09
Tal
So I never touched anything until I was. I think I was 17. Never. Never touched alcohol. Never. You know, smoked weed, didn’t even drink. Didn’t even drink. I always had this. I think it was a fear of kind of being out of control. and, you know, was was always taught drugs are bad, drinking’s bad, all of that sort of stuff.
00:01:41:16 – 00:02:03:17
Tal
My, my dad never drunk. and I don’t really remember seeing my mum drink either, so I wasn’t really around anything. and then when I was 17, I remember, smoking weed for the first time with a few friends from school. and if I remember correctly, it was around the same time that my parents got divorced.
00:02:03:17 – 00:02:24:22
Tal
And my, my cousin, my cousin, who I was quite close with was 19 passed away. so it was all it was, it was a very kind of similar time that all of those things happened, and I don’t really remember doing it for any other reason other than, you know, being, being young, wanting to try something new and and kind of give it a go.
00:02:24:25 – 00:02:37:21
Tal
But, you know, from the from the day that I started, I smoked weed for the first time. I didn’t really stop. and that was 17. And, you know, then I, I tried coke for the first time when I was 21.
00:02:37:24 – 00:02:38:20
Elliott Wald
Where were you?
00:02:38:22 – 00:03:02:08
Tal
I was at a friend’s house. I think it was either Christmas Eve or New Year’s Eve. I just broken up with an ex-girlfriend and kind of took that pretty, pretty hard and just felt that I needed something to to bring me out myself. You know, I was never particularly comfortable in social situations. I didn’t really enjoy going out partying at all.
00:03:02:11 – 00:03:12:10
Tal
and everyone was doing it. And I thought this was a way for me to be more like them, and to kind of come out my show a little bit to chat to people more, to maybe have a little dance, you know, to do with the thing.
00:03:12:11 – 00:03:18:11
Elliott Wald
So in other words, what you’re saying is, when you first started using cocaine, yeah, it gave you confidence. Yeah. Do things to talk to people.
00:03:18:11 – 00:03:45:02
Tal
I thought it did. and, you know, I don’t think it ever really worked. I thought that’s what it was supposed to do. but pretty quickly, it did the opposite, you know, It made me very insular. I couldn’t talk to people. I was more hyper aware than I’d ever been before, considering I was quite a hyper aware individual.
00:03:45:04 – 00:03:59:15
Tal
so it really flipped it on its head and kind of took all the things that I thought I wanted away from me that I probably already had, if that makes sense. Yeah. and left me with none of it more, really.
00:03:59:17 – 00:04:07:18
Elliott Wald
And initially it was social at the beginning. Yeah. How quickly did that escalate in terms you usage?
00:04:07:20 – 00:04:28:00
Tal
Immediately. I think, it, I remember going out that first time and then after that, I was always trying to conceal the fact that I was using it. I was the kind of, I was the kind of person that would go out, would tell people I didn’t have drugs on on me so I could use their drugs and use my own.
00:04:28:00 – 00:04:36:29
Tal
And then I’d leave the night early after using their drugs to go home and use on my own. Wow. And that happened, I’d say, within within a year, if not less.
00:04:37:01 – 00:04:43:29
Elliott Wald
So you’d be out? Yeah. So you went from zero? Yeah. To being out with other people using their supply?
00:04:43:29 – 00:04:44:16
Tal
Yeah.
00:04:44:19 – 00:04:46:23
Elliott Wald
Going home, using your supply. Just wanting to be.
00:04:46:23 – 00:04:47:22
Tal
On your own. Yeah.
00:04:47:24 – 00:04:48:29
Elliott Wald
Escalating fast.
00:04:48:29 – 00:05:04:07
Tal
Very, very fast. Yeah, I was. I was addicted from day one. It was. It was all I could think about the next time. The next time I pick up, the next time I’d have an opportunity to use publicly. And then it became something that I didn’t care about using publicly. I just wanted to use.
00:05:04:09 – 00:05:13:15
Elliott Wald
On my own. Yeah, that’s. That’s classic. Yeah, right. You know, I call it the most sociable drug that becomes the most anti sociable drug. That’s what happened.
00:05:13:15 – 00:05:31:20
Tal
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, there’s nothing special and different about my addiction or my using. It was textbook from day one. You know, all the things that they tell you you’re going to end up doing lies and she’ll lie still and cheat. I was doing within a matter of months.
00:05:31:23 – 00:05:32:05
Elliott Wald
Really?
00:05:32:05 – 00:05:32:25
Tal
Yeah, for.
00:05:32:25 – 00:05:37:12
Elliott Wald
Sure. And how frequently we use in from that go get.
00:05:37:15 – 00:05:56:16
Tal
I mean, from what I remember it was pretty much every day. and I say it was every day, unless I was either out of the country or sleep. There was, there was no in between. I mean, there were times when I, I couldn’t afford to and, you know, that led me onto to other addictions, which I’m sure we’ll, we’ll get on to.
00:05:56:16 – 00:06:08:22
Tal
But any opportunity I had, I was using, you know, I’d, I’d pick up at four in the morning on a Tuesday when I had work up a you know, it would there was there was no stopping me at all.
00:06:08:24 – 00:06:15:18
Elliott Wald
It’s interesting. Use that word opportunity. Yeah. Because I think a lot of users are opportunists. That was you for sure.
00:06:15:19 – 00:06:31:15
Tal
Any opportunity. Any. Any. Yeah, any opportunity I had to use, I would take it, you know, family, family events, you know, socializing, work commitments. I, I took any, any waking moment I had to use. I’d take it.
00:06:31:21 – 00:06:33:28
Elliott Wald
What do you think you were escaping from?
00:06:34:00 – 00:06:57:19
Tal
I think a lot of things. I think, I think pain. I had a lot of pain. I didn’t really know what that pain was. confusion about who I was, where I fit in the world, family stuff. You know, the pain of losing my cousin, the pain of my parents being divorced, the the kind of I always felt somewhat lost in between my brothers.
00:06:57:19 – 00:07:10:11
Tal
You know, they were both quite outgoing and successful, and I just hadn’t quite found my thing. And so I felt very much lost in, in between that.
00:07:10:14 – 00:07:11:22
Elliott Wald
your brother’s ages.
00:07:11:26 – 00:07:34:13
Tal
So, so I’m 30, my older brother is 31, my younger brother’s 28. So we’re all very close in age. We were all very close socially. We went to school together. We had a lot of the same friends. we, we lived together from a we obviously we always lived together, but we moved out of my family home when I was, I think, 18 and we moved in together, just the three of us.
00:07:34:15 – 00:07:35:19
Elliott Wald
So I was close.
00:07:35:19 – 00:07:45:21
Tal
Yeah, I mean, we’re still very close now. me and my younger brother lived together. My older brother moved out a few years ago. But, you know, we’re still we’re still very close.
00:07:45:21 – 00:07:47:06
Elliott Wald
And what does your older brother do?
00:07:47:08 – 00:08:10:22
Tal
So he founded a water business called Kind of Water. And, you know, is is an entrepreneur and has his fingers in a lot of pies with regards to business stuff. my younger brother, he was, he was a model and kind of influencer and then went on reality TV and has kind of carved out his own path in TV and social media and stuff.
00:08:10:22 – 00:08:14:24
Tal
And so I, I didn’t find my thing up until.
00:08:14:26 – 00:08:16:08
Elliott Wald
Did that cause a little pressure inside?
00:08:16:08 – 00:08:37:09
Tal
Yeah, Yeah, internally, for sure. You know, I never really felt external pressure, but I think, you know, the community that I grew up in, I always felt there were eyes on me as to what I was going to do, whether that was whether that’s like a a self-absorbed kind of idea. I definitely felt that, I didn’t feel it from my family.
00:08:37:09 – 00:08:51:14
Tal
You know, I always, I always felt loved and kind of respected, but I think I wanted to be someone I didn’t know who I was or how I was going to be anything. and I, you know, kind of slipped into a hole.
00:08:51:17 – 00:08:57:05
Elliott Wald
Your escape. Yeah. Yeah, You didn’t. You didn’t have to look in the mirror not knowing who you were. Yeah.
00:08:57:08 – 00:09:01:25
Tal
Well, I became the addict. That’s. That’s what I became.
00:09:01:27 – 00:09:18:29
Elliott Wald
Yeah. And, you know, being at that young age and using you in that tribe of people that also used. Yeah. So I’m wondering that, you know. No, I’m jumping ahead and we’re going to go back to school. But I’m wondering, when you stopped using, did you detach from that tribe?
00:09:19:01 – 00:09:52:09
Tal
I, I think I detached from everything that I knew. I, I had, I never had that many friends. I always felt on the outskirts of different friendship groups and kind of different, different people and communities, essentially. so by the time I, I started using heavily, I’d lost everyone anyway, so when I, when I stopped using, it was more about rebuilding from scratch rather than moving away from people because I’d already pushed everyone away by that point.
00:09:52:09 – 00:10:12:18
Tal
Anyway, it was, it was really just me and my brothers. I had a couple of friends, but again, I’d kind of use them to use because I felt comfortable using with them. they were the weed smokers, they were the ones that, you know, I could convince to get on it.
00:10:12:18 – 00:10:15:01
Elliott Wald
Were you the enabler?
00:10:15:03 – 00:10:37:04
Tal
I don’t know if I was the enabler. I because I, you know, I wasn’t particularly outspoken or outgoing, so I just kind of I was kind of the chameleon. I could I could get involved with out drawing too much attention to myself without without convincing everyone to, to use. It was kind of like a slight nudge in the right direction for me.
00:10:37:04 – 00:10:41:19
Tal
So I didn’t really have to do anything particularly outgoing, really.
00:10:41:22 – 00:10:45:06
Elliott Wald
When you were using and you were around other people?
00:10:45:06 – 00:10:45:14
Tal
Yeah.
00:10:45:17 – 00:10:49:01
Elliott Wald
Did you tend to just stick to people who used?
00:10:49:04 – 00:11:12:26
Tal
Yes, I would say so. I didn’t really involve myself in people that didn’t use because with that, you know, comes the shame of, of, of having to explain to people and having to show people who you really are. Yeah. so I didn’t really have much of that. I don’t think, yeah, you know, I jumped from crowd to crowd before it got too obvious, I think.
00:11:12:28 – 00:11:14:20
Elliott Wald
And no one noticed and no one noticed.
00:11:14:20 – 00:11:25:02
Tal
So but so when it became like a really regular obvious thing, by that point, I would have probably found a new friendship group that I could then pull it all back and start again.
00:11:25:02 – 00:11:26:24
Elliott Wald
So no one put you under the microscope?
00:11:26:24 – 00:11:30:23
Tal
No. No one ever put me under the microscope until the very end. Even my family.
00:11:30:23 – 00:11:38:01
Elliott Wald
And during that period of of doing it more and more frequently was a quantity we using.
00:11:38:03 – 00:11:48:03
Tal
So I didn’t really have the luxury of money. so I remember picking up, I don’t know, £40 worth every day. the.
00:11:48:04 – 00:11:48:22
Elliott Wald
Point for.
00:11:48:22 – 00:12:14:23
Tal
Yeah, by the end of it, it, it couldn’t have been further from coke. I, God knows what was in it. The deal is kind of sussed me out. They knew that I didn’t really know what I, what I wanted or what was good and what wasn’t. but yeah, I’d say point for a push. I’d get, you know, a gram and a half, two grams if I just got paid or, you know, when, when I was gambling, if I just had a bit of money come in.
00:12:14:25 – 00:12:34:10
Tal
but it was like, it was like a small but constant quantity because I didn’t want to. I also had this financial fear that the I would run out of money, which I did on multiple occasions, but then I had the fear of where that would lead me in terms of, you know, having to ask people for money or having to borrow or whatever.
00:12:34:10 – 00:12:44:00
Tal
And then that would then shine a light on my position. So I didn’t want to give anything away. So I tried really hard to manage it, in kind of smaller doses.
00:12:44:01 – 00:12:46:19
Elliott Wald
Were you drug sniffing or using alcohol?
00:12:46:23 – 00:13:04:05
Tal
No, I was. I was dry sniffing and then I’d and then, then I’d smoke weed to kind of bring me back down. And probably towards the end I started drinking a bit as well to kind of get all the, all the feelings going. yeah, it got, it got pretty messy by the end of it.
00:13:04:05 – 00:13:06:05
Elliott Wald
The alcohol to level yourself down. Yeah.
00:13:06:08 – 00:13:24:01
Tal
Yeah. And then the weight to bring me right down in the coke to bring it back up and, and then, and then I got involved. I always found it hard to, to pick up care. I didn’t really know the right dealers, but when I did, I, I threw that into the mix, and then it was, you know.
00:13:24:03 – 00:13:42:02
Elliott Wald
You know, it’s very interesting because, you know, I talked to a lot of people and I see lots of clients and I have thousands of people that make comments in my social media now and is that there’s this very commonality between these people of having an all or nothing mentality or do you think you have an all or nothing mentality?
00:13:42:04 – 00:14:17:09
Tal
I think that’s deep rooted within me. I think I struggle to kind of see the gray area between the black and white. and it definitely played out in my using because I could not stop. and I, and I wanted everything all the time. I think, you know, now having, having been through recovery and, and you know, a long period of abstinence, I definitely I’m better with it, but I still find myself now, you know, even in relation ships financially with work, whatever it is, I want everything or I don’t want it at all.
00:14:17:12 – 00:14:19:13
Elliott Wald
You’re either all in or not. Yeah.
00:14:19:19 – 00:14:19:28
Tal
Yeah.
00:14:20:03 – 00:14:33:15
Elliott Wald
You know, I get that idea though. And you using I know that you we touched on this when we spoke previously to this podcast led you down the path of gambling as well. So talk to me about that.
00:14:33:18 – 00:15:01:25
Tal
So I would say gambling was the thing that really brought me to my knees. I was, was using heavily and, you know, had the bright idea of that’s the way to make money that I needed to use was to gamble. I’m not into sports. I don’t, I don’t know, blackjack or I went online. I found the easiest, most comfortable way to do it, which was slots on my phone.
00:15:01:27 – 00:15:06:12
Tal
And that was, that was, that was a killer paying.
00:15:06:12 – 00:15:06:21
Elliott Wald
For.
00:15:06:22 – 00:15:17:29
Tal
Really, really paying for. I would spend hours locked away in a dark room in my bedroom, on my phone, just spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning until until the I had nothing left.
00:15:17:29 – 00:15:23:20
Elliott Wald
So it’s like racking up a loan. Sitting on your own. Yeah. In your bedroom, in the dark, on the phone.
00:15:23:20 – 00:15:53:11
Tal
Yep, yep, yep. Spinning. Yeah, exactly that. And, you know, the interesting thing is, I never gambled when I wasn’t on coke. It just didn’t interest me at all. Yeah. and yeah, that. So. So I think if I didn’t gamble, I probably would have had quite a long time left of using in me. But it was the gambling that really brought everything to a head because I, you know, I had, I had huge amounts of debt.
00:15:53:13 – 00:16:12:27
Tal
I, I’d, I’d stolen money, I borrowed money. You know, I had nowhere left to turn. So I really was up against the wall. And that is when I’m, that is when I, I don’t always have made the decision because it I didn’t really make I didn’t have a choice to make it. Well, I had two choices to make, but I made the decision to kind of come clean and.
00:16:12:29 – 00:16:20:23
Elliott Wald
How long after starting to using did this spiral to the point where you made the decision to come clean?
00:16:20:25 – 00:16:29:03
Tal
so I, I did coke when I was 21 and I, I went to treatment when I was 26.
00:16:29:10 – 00:16:30:19
Elliott Wald
Okay. So for a five year period.
00:16:30:19 – 00:16:32:00
Tal
A five year period, Yeah.
00:16:32:02 – 00:16:51:02
Elliott Wald
It’s an interesting question because, you know, you’re a young, good looking boy going out with your friends. I know the area you live because I live there. You know, you went out, partied things like that and you never touched. It’s a 21. Yeah. And you must have seen other people around you taken it. Why did you never try it before?
00:16:51:04 – 00:17:13:06
Tal
I think I was. I think I was quite a naive and, I want to say innocent young person. I, I think I had a lot of fear, about it and about what it could do. I didn’t really know anything about it. I’d actually never really been around it other than weed. I’d never really seen someone break up a line or.
00:17:13:12 – 00:17:38:03
Tal
Really? Yeah, I, I didn’t. I wasn’t that sociable, so I wasn’t really in the right circles. I’d heard about people doing it and, you know, people I knew would tried it and and did it or whatever. But I, I never really found myself there until that day. so, you know, would I have been around too early? I probably would have tried it, but it, it wasn’t something that I saw.
00:17:38:05 – 00:17:41:17
Tal
so it never really, never just, never really happened.
00:17:41:20 – 00:17:54:23
Elliott Wald
But just, just going back to the slot machine, online gambling in your own, sitting at home, racking up lines. I hear this a lot. And you said a really interesting thing. I would never have thought about doing this unless I was on it.
00:17:54:24 – 00:17:55:18
Tal
Yeah.
00:17:55:20 – 00:18:05:10
Elliott Wald
You know, that’s exactly what it was. Yeah. You had this what I call state dependent memory behavior. In other words, an association between using and doing X, Y, or Z, which was gambling.
00:18:05:10 – 00:18:25:03
Tal
Yeah. And I think, you know, I was chasing the rush and the high and, and you know, when, when the code starts to wear off, you’re still spinning. And so you’ve still got that kind of that rush that you’re, you’re searching for and, and kind of like you say, then all I associate doing coke with was gambling. So I couldn’t do the two things.
00:18:25:06 – 00:18:41:13
Tal
I couldn’t not do the two things. Yeah. so whenever I was using, I had the urge to gamble. Even if I was out, I’d go sit in the toilet. When I was on the toilet, I’d just whip out my phone and start gambling. Even if it was for a five minute minute period. It was it was any, any chance I could get.
00:18:41:17 – 00:19:02:27
Elliott Wald
Yeah. I mean, I think once you develop an association with using gear, yeah, I think you’re going to continue to do that. Whether that’s watching porn. Yeah. Whether that’s gambling or whatever the extra advice is, they then become, you know, tied together. So it’s funny because I had a client only the other week who was talking about using the slots while.
00:19:02:29 – 00:19:23:17
Elliott Wald
Yeah. Or using and the, you know he said a typical thing where he’s he only remembers the wins and he’s chasing that with and he said to me, you know, you know, you know we money. And I said, well yeah, if you took over what you spent in a year and what you lost in a year, are you winning?
00:19:23:17 – 00:19:39:11
Tal
Yeah. I wish I could only remember the wins because I’d certainly don’t I, It was, it was a loss from day one and it’s, it’s, you know, I’ve always said that I think gambling is the most dangerous because, you know, you can go on a bender on a Saturday night, you have Sunday to recover. Monday, you kind of start again fresh.
00:19:39:13 – 00:19:53:27
Tal
You know, you you blow your money on a on the first of the month, you’re done. Like what? What are you going to do? I used to get paid on a Friday and on the Monday I’d be three grand in my overdraft and have the whole month to worry about.
00:19:54:00 – 00:19:55:11
Elliott Wald
Wow.
00:19:55:14 – 00:20:14:09
Tal
So for me, that was that’s the killer. You know, I could see how how it leads to suicide, how it leads to those horrendous situations, because I was I was very much there. You know, I took out two payday loans I pawned. You know, I put in a watch that I had for my that I got for my 18th birthday.
00:20:14:16 – 00:20:22:01
Tal
You know, all of these things that I, I deeply cared about, I, I lost all of it with not a care in the.
00:20:22:01 – 00:20:34:04
Elliott Wald
World because you’re using which is making you gamble. Yeah. And now you’re chasing that. Yeah. And everything else disappears. Yeah. Well, yeah, it’s a dark part of this.
00:20:34:06 – 00:20:37:02
Tal
The darkest, really. The darkest. Yeah.
00:20:37:05 – 00:20:45:17
Elliott Wald
Okay. And so what point did you. Did you come out of denial and wake up and go, I’ve got a problem?
00:20:45:19 – 00:21:09:16
Tal
So I found myself working for a company. a lovely kind of start up business with. With really great people. And I’d just got on the job, and about about three or four months in, an ex girlfriend of mine broke up with me and I, we worked in a we work office and then we work I don’t know if you know much about we work.
00:21:09:17 – 00:21:10:08
Elliott Wald
I’ve seen the film.
00:21:10:14 – 00:21:12:29
Tal
Yeah, they, they have something called the Wellness Room.
00:21:12:29 – 00:21:14:00
Elliott Wald
Okay.
00:21:14:03 – 00:21:21:03
Tal
So I would. And you book the wellness room. Depending on, you know, you can have an hour slot to kind of show in there at lunchtime. So I would like it.
00:21:21:03 – 00:21:22:25
Elliott Wald
You just go in the room and say.
00:21:22:27 – 00:21:28:29
Tal
Yeah, there’s a little sofa, there’s a TV, whatever. I would book the wellness room to go and get on it on my lunch break.
00:21:29:06 – 00:21:29:23
Elliott Wald
wow.
00:21:29:23 – 00:21:55:01
Tal
So I found myself one day sitting in this wellness room. with not a penny to my name doing lines. And I, I, I had two options. One option was to take my own life that was a very viable option. And the other option was to do what I do best, which is call my mum and tell her that I need help.
00:21:55:04 – 00:21:58:15
Tal
so I did the latter, thankfully.
00:21:58:17 – 00:22:01:05
Elliott Wald
And what was your mum’s response?
00:22:01:07 – 00:22:05:04
Tal
I actually can’t remember. I’m not sure it was positive.
00:22:05:06 – 00:22:06:09
Elliott Wald
I’m sure she wasn’t waiving of.
00:22:06:09 – 00:22:34:03
Tal
No, no, no. I think, I think she, she saw it coming. but from that moment, the wheels were in motion for me to get better. within, within a week, I was, I was booked in to a treatment program. I had started sessions with an addiction therapist who was the clinical advisor to the treatment program. and the treatment program wasn’t for, like another month.
00:22:34:03 – 00:22:50:11
Tal
So I, they wanted to start me doing something. So it was kind of relatively kept on some structure. Yeah, some structure. and then it was, you know, it was all systems go from there to kind of to kind of get me, get me better.
00:22:50:13 – 00:22:51:09
Elliott Wald
So you told Mum.
00:22:51:09 – 00:22:51:18
Tal
Yeah.
00:22:51:25 – 00:22:59:02
Elliott Wald
She along with you. Yeah. Have found a place to go to. Yeah. You start some sessions. Yeah.
00:22:59:05 – 00:23:01:17
Tal
I surrendered all my bank accounts and.
00:23:01:19 – 00:23:03:05
Elliott Wald
Gave you my all your bank cards.
00:23:03:08 – 00:23:04:05
Tal
Gave her everything.
00:23:04:05 – 00:23:08:08
Elliott Wald
And then you brothers. You told your brothers? Yeah. What was their reaction?
00:23:08:11 – 00:23:31:29
Tal
again, I think they were expecting. Yeah. I think there was probably a lot of relief. and a lot of sadness because, you know, it really impacted my brothers, my, my older brother area, especially, he, he kind of took on the father role because we live together, so, you know, he’d, there’d be nights where he’d come into my room while I was sleeping to check that I was still alive.
00:23:32:02 – 00:23:58:19
Tal
a lot of things like that. So, so I think it, it, it was, it was a relief, but it was, it was the start of a long journey. I think they knew that it wasn’t quite over yet. and I didn’t, I didn’t actually stop using until a couple of weeks into treatment. and funnily enough, I didn’t tell my therapist or anyone I believe that it was actually about the coke.
00:23:58:22 – 00:24:13:05
Tal
I told everyone that it was the gambling that was the issue. and then about a week into treatment, I got drug tested, which came as a shock to me for some reason. And then obviously my test wasn’t clean and that’s when I had to really.
00:24:13:05 – 00:24:17:00
Elliott Wald
Wonder, why did you do that? Weren’t you? That was that was better.
00:24:17:02 – 00:24:20:03
Tal
Because I thought I thought I could keep something back for myself. And I thought the.
00:24:20:03 – 00:24:20:20
Elliott Wald
Drugs will.
00:24:20:21 – 00:24:21:18
Tal
Keep back for myself.
00:24:21:22 – 00:24:22:07
Elliott Wald
So like.
00:24:22:07 – 00:24:23:22
Tal
Give them that. Give them the gambling.
00:24:23:23 – 00:24:28:18
Elliott Wald
You surrendered part of you. Correct. But part of you is like, Fuck, yeah, I don’t wanna stop.
00:24:28:18 – 00:24:34:04
Tal
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I need. I needed it. It was my medication and I needed it to survive the game.
00:24:34:05 – 00:24:34:20
Elliott Wald
Needed it.
00:24:34:21 – 00:24:43:15
Tal
Yeah, definitely needed it. I didn’t know another way to live without it. so I. So I gave over a little bit of the gambling.
00:24:43:17 – 00:24:53:05
Elliott Wald
so at that point, yeah, on the rational side, knowing that I only gamble when I use. Yeah. And if we deal with the gamble. Yeah.
00:24:53:07 – 00:24:56:00
Tal
There was no rationale, there was no, you know.
00:24:56:02 – 00:24:58:26
Elliott Wald
Because you’re not the sort of person that goes out gambling other times. Yeah.
00:24:58:26 – 00:25:09:16
Tal
There was no rationale. I just, I was, I was scared and I was, you know, again up against the wall, and I, I needed to give over something because there was a there must be a reason why my life is falling apart.
00:25:09:19 – 00:25:09:29
Elliott Wald
Okay.
00:25:10:00 – 00:25:18:17
Tal
I’m and that was that was the most, the most palatable, I think between the gambling and the drug problem.
00:25:18:17 – 00:25:22:11
Elliott Wald
Palatable for you of your family.
00:25:22:14 – 00:25:23:17
Tal
probably for me.
00:25:23:20 – 00:25:25:10
Elliott Wald
Okay.
00:25:25:13 – 00:25:44:04
Tal
you know, I was. I was deeply ashamed of being a drug addict. coming from a nice family, a loving family, you know, middle class, went to nice schools, you know, had nice things, lived in nice houses. I couldn’t be a drug addict. so but gambling, you know, gambling, gambling, gambling. Cool.
00:25:44:08 – 00:25:47:21
Elliott Wald
Everybody gambles rightly this in every corner, Correct?
00:25:47:21 – 00:25:51:12
Tal
There’s one outside my flat, is there? Yeah. Not anymore. Close down, but. Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:51:15 – 00:26:13:25
Elliott Wald
Because you still going? Yeah, I’m joking. You know, it’s funny, You know, I’ve never been into gambling. Yeah, You know, I’ve used copious amounts of stuff in my lifetime, but never gambled. And it was very. There’s a very interesting reason why I never gambled. My grandfather was from the east end of London. Yeah, I never met him that three times in my life when I was very young.
00:26:13:27 – 00:26:42:25
Elliott Wald
A little bit of a bit of an East end dodgy dealings, selling second incomes. Yeah, not a guy, but he was a gambler, big time gambler. And I remember being about, I’d say nine ish, nine years old, get my grandfather for the first time. And he says to me, Do you gamble? I’m like a nine year old Chandler, You know, Was it no grandad on a gamble?
00:26:42:27 – 00:27:03:08
Elliott Wald
And he said, Let me think about gambling. I don’t know if this is true today. Right? He said, If you go to the bookies, how many windows are there for you to put your bets on how many windows? And I was like, I no grandad. He’s like, there’s three windows. You can go into the bookies to put your bets on who’s okay.
00:27:03:09 – 00:27:21:04
Elliott Wald
He’s still scratching my head and he said, Grandson, how many windows you think you can go to to get paid out? And I was like three grand that there was no one. And he said, What does that tell you If there are three windows to take your money and one window to pay out?
00:27:21:05 – 00:27:21:24
Tal
Interesting.
00:27:21:25 – 00:27:26:03
Elliott Wald
That must tell you something. And that story somehow just stuck in my head.
00:27:26:04 – 00:27:27:05
Tal
Interesting.
00:27:27:08 – 00:27:31:00
Elliott Wald
You know, it’s amazing how things just store in there.
00:27:31:02 – 00:27:31:16
Tal
That’s good.
00:27:31:24 – 00:27:40:08
Elliott Wald
Yeah. So you were still in denial at that point because you thought I can give up my gambling, but keep that using my gear.
00:27:40:08 – 00:27:59:15
Tal
Yeah, I was in denial for a long time. And, and, you know, I was massively manipulative. I was, you know, the best liar. I was super convincing. I could, you know, that there were times where my brother’s found empty baggies, and I’d tell them it wasn’t mine. You know, in the in my in my bedroom.
00:27:59:17 – 00:28:01:05
Elliott Wald
And my dad went with that.
00:28:01:10 – 00:28:30:22
Tal
Because I think I think when people don’t want to believe something, it’s easier to convince them. But also I you know, I’d been doing it for so long, you know, I turn the tears on or I’d, you know, I, I’d kind of taken this role within within my family dynamic of being the kind of downtrodden son, the downtrodden brother, the the the the one that doesn’t have that many friends and never has that much money and whatever.
00:28:30:22 – 00:28:45:16
Tal
So I could, you know, I could pull on the heartstrings and and get away with it. And it was only until I met my therapist at the treatment center, who’s still my therapist now. Nice that she told me to cut the shit. Those are those. Those are her words.
00:28:45:16 – 00:28:47:24
Elliott Wald
Cause that’s the kind of therapist I like.
00:28:47:26 – 00:29:18:29
Tal
And I and I was and I was showed the. The little drug test. Yeah. With the line saying coke. And she’s like, cut the shit. Like, you can’t get out of this situation. And there was even a situation where I had used with someone that I was in treatment with, I had. And that was a real turning point for me because we were both sat down, this person denied it and I came clean and I owned up to it.
00:29:18:29 – 00:29:38:24
Tal
She was asked to leave the treatment center and I was allowed to stay. And for me, that is when I really started to get honest. And, you know, it’s it’s something quite common that is said in the rooms and in this sort of space, and that is that your secrets keep you sick. I had so many secrets, and it was only until I started letting them go that I started to get better.
00:29:38:26 – 00:29:39:18
Elliott Wald
it’s very true.
00:29:39:22 – 00:29:42:13
Tal
I it, it couldn’t be more true for me personally.
00:29:42:13 – 00:29:52:28
Elliott Wald
Because when you’re using, you can allow those secrets to go round around in your head. Yeah. And you’re just having that within yourself and it’s a safe space. Yeah. Even though it’s detrimental to your wellbeing.
00:29:52:28 – 00:29:54:08
Tal
Sure.
00:29:54:10 – 00:29:59:27
Elliott Wald
And now all of a sudden you’ve you deciding that, you know, I’m going to air these.
00:30:00:00 – 00:30:22:07
Tal
And if it feels good, you know, it’s, it’s when you’re keeping all these things inside, it’s, it’s, it’s dark and it’s scary. And as soon as I never forget something that another therapist said, she she was talking about her daughter and she kind of tried to explain like why it’s better to to talk about things. And she said, if you’re in your bedroom at night and the lights off, you know, there might be monsters under the bed.
00:30:22:07 – 00:30:54:13
Tal
It’s it’s dark and it’s scary and you don’t really know what’s around. If you turn the light on, it’s the space that you’re familiar with. It’s safe and it’s comforting. And it’s the same as talking about things. You let them out into the light. They’re not as scary. They’re not as as kind of overwhelming. And that’s something that’s really stuck with me that the I’ve definitely found in, you know, in in in the past four and a bit years, you know, I’ve had many challenges and there’s been many things I’ve had to talk about and and kind of deal with, that have always felt better once I’ve spoken about them because when you’re keeping
00:30:54:13 – 00:31:00:15
Tal
them inside, they turn into something. They turn into bigger monsters that actually that they’re never supposed to be.
00:31:00:18 – 00:31:18:24
Elliott Wald
You’re standing alone on them now. Yeah. And listen, we all have probably, you know, we all have our fucking days when things don’t go right. Whereas before you would turn to using. Yeah. To escape from those problems. Yeah. Now that you’re clean. Yeah. How do you deal with those problems?
00:31:18:27 – 00:31:35:01
Tal
I mean, there’s, there’s a, there’s a whole whole array of things that I do in order to stay. Well, you know, from medication, from regular therapy, from meditation. you know, tattoos became a big thing for me. Obviously, I’m a tattoo artist.
00:31:35:01 – 00:31:36:24
Elliott Wald
What about that? How did you. How did that come about?
00:31:36:25 – 00:31:41:24
Tal
So I. I got my first tattoo when I was 17.
00:31:41:26 – 00:31:42:22
Elliott Wald
I been to.
00:31:42:26 – 00:32:05:12
Tal
Okay, nice. And I didn’t I didn’t have any until I was 26, until I got clean. I didn’t have any more until I got clean. and I think I think part of it was, was taking ownership of myself and my body and, and learning to make decisions that that felt right for me. And I didn’t really have to ask for that permission because I was quiet.
00:32:05:14 – 00:32:20:01
Tal
Like I said before, I was quite a naive young person, but I was also quite babied and quite immature and I was never comfortable with making my own decisions. And I remember I remember I was going to get a tattoo and I’d called my mum to ask her.
00:32:20:03 – 00:32:21:06
Elliott Wald
Ask her permission, ask.
00:32:21:08 – 00:32:23:04
Tal
Permission. And I was 26. Right.
00:32:23:04 – 00:32:24:03
Elliott Wald
Okay.
00:32:24:05 – 00:32:30:19
Tal
Which is not normal thing to do. And then after I spoke to my mum, I called my therapist and I asked her for her permission.
00:32:30:20 – 00:32:33:15
Elliott Wald
You asked your therapist? She had to.
00:32:33:15 – 00:32:54:22
Tal
Correct. And she said to me, she said, You’re fucking 26 years old. You want the tattoo. You go and get that tattoo. It doesn’t matter as long as you’re not hurting anyone else and you’re not hurting yourself, go and go and do what feels right. And so I think a part of a part of my tattoos was that I was learning to make decisions, albeit permanent ones.
00:32:54:25 – 00:33:17:05
Tal
thankfully, none of them have been that bad. I think they were. Yeah, they’re not bad. I also think there was an element of it, which was I, I don’t want to say self-harm, but definitely an element of that because you know, the pain is a big distraction. Yeah. The pain and the, the kind of act of getting a tattoo becomes quite addictive in itself.
00:33:17:07 – 00:33:18:02
Elliott Wald
that’s true.
00:33:18:04 – 00:33:41:06
Tal
I remember reading something that, that explains about how tattoos kind of almost show some level of emotional immaturity. It’s kind of like drawing on yourself at school and kind of defacing your body, you know, whatever the opinions on that. So I think there’s that there’s a lot of things that kind of led me down that they they they become they became really liberating for me.
00:33:41:08 – 00:34:06:21
Tal
you know, it was it was the first time that I was able to take ownership of who I was and what I wanted without it being detrimental. and it’s something that I enjoyed and, you know, I appreciate the art and now it’s given me an incredible career. you know, relationships are something that I struggled with, fantasy is a big one for me.
00:34:06:24 – 00:34:27:00
Tal
you know, love addiction and, and kind of, and sex and, you know, love avoidance and sexual anorexia and all of these things have massively played a part in my, in my journey. but you know, I work harder than ever now to keep all my ducks in a row. What do you.
00:34:27:00 – 00:34:29:19
Elliott Wald
Think you’re addicted to now?
00:34:29:21 – 00:34:31:05
Tal
I think work.
00:34:31:07 – 00:34:55:05
Elliott Wald
See, that’s the interesting thing. I believe the majority of people who had an addiction to gambling, to using drugs, have a propensity to have an addictive disposition. Yeah. Whether it’s genetics with its nature, with its nurture inside themselves, you know, I know. I look at myself. I’m certainly addicted to exercise. Yeah, I like to go to the gym.
00:34:55:05 – 00:35:13:00
Elliott Wald
I’ve trained forever and I think and I’m addicted to work a tremendous amount of hours, you know, and I’m passionate about it. So I think I think it’s about not necessarily not becoming addicted, but honing your addiction into something that’s positive, beneficial and useful. What do you think about that?
00:35:13:03 – 00:35:37:28
Tal
I think the term addictive personality bothers me. Okay. because for me, I don’t say I would never say I have an addictive personality. I would say I have an issue with feelings and it’s and it’s feelings that I struggle with. So whether that, you know, whether that is positive feelings or negative or negative feelings, if you want to call them negative feelings, they’re actually, in my opinion, on neither.
00:35:37:28 – 00:36:02:03
Tal
They’re just feelings. but it’s those that I struggle to manage. And so I’m always, I’m always trying to find a way to avoid them. And the ways that I have to avoid them now are just less detrimental. And, you know, I think society looks at a work addiction as something quite positive. All your hard work or you get congratulated for it.
00:36:02:05 – 00:36:21:12
Tal
You know, you’re you’re you’re able to kind of reap the rewards financially and all of those things. But I’m still trying to escape from my feelings because, you know, on my days off, I work on the weekends and sometimes during the week and my days off during the week. So there’s not that much to do. I struggle massively to kind of sit and be.
00:36:21:15 – 00:36:24:17
Elliott Wald
how do you fill that void?
00:36:24:19 – 00:36:34:26
Tal
I, I don’t really because I don’t, I don’t want to fill the void. I’m really trying to learn to sit with my feelings. Right. And to not try and escape them and be.
00:36:34:26 – 00:36:35:14
Elliott Wald
In the moment.
00:36:35:14 – 00:36:58:11
Tal
Be in the moment. Yeah. And you know, I do a lot of meditation, and I always thought meditation sounds so one keep up meditation me is massively helpful. It allows me to, to be there and to kind of move through the feelings that I have and to come out the other side without having to escape from them. but for me, that’s as long as I’m, as long as I have feelings, I’m always going to want to escape from them.
00:36:58:14 – 00:37:08:02
Tal
So I’m always going to have to try and manage, you know, the addictions that come with it, whether it’s work, whether it’s relationships, whether it’s sex, whatever.
00:37:08:04 – 00:37:10:22
Elliott Wald
you’re afraid of your feelings.
00:37:10:24 – 00:37:36:25
Tal
I’m not afraid of them. They’ve always just felt very big to me that they’re big and unmanageable and, and all consuming. yeah, I’ve, I for me, that’s, that’s the, that’s the biggest thing. That’s, you know, that’s why I take medication is to manage my feelings. Right. It’s the because the anxiety is too much. The, the sadness, you know with the depression is too much.
00:37:36:25 – 00:37:55:04
Tal
The, you know there’s there’s times where if I guess if I wasn’t on antidepressants, I would the highs would also be a lot higher which you know may lead me down the wrong path with using because I think, you know, I’d feel excited. I’d feel, you know, a lot of happiness and stuff. And maybe that would be detrimental too.
00:37:55:04 – 00:38:00:19
Tal
I don’t know. so a lot of my life now is about managing how I feel.
00:38:00:21 – 00:38:01:08
Elliott Wald
Balance.
00:38:01:09 – 00:38:02:23
Tal
Yeah. Moderation.
00:38:02:27 – 00:38:27:14
Elliott Wald
Yeah, moderation. Yeah, I know. When we were speaking prior to coming on, we touched on the fact that, you know, you drink, you still drink alcohol, but in moderation. And, and I don’t like I picked up on that. Not to you. Why? Because, you know, I had an, a problem with using gear for many, many years on a huge scale, you know alcohol was never an issue for me.
00:38:27:16 – 00:38:48:22
Elliott Wald
Yeah. And I still drink occasionally. Yeah. Like I went to Tenerife about a month ago with my son, who’s 20. My oldest boy just a week died in sunshine because I believe in that quality time and I like to pina coladas. When I was on holiday, you know, I might have like, you know, another glass of wine once every few months.
00:38:48:22 – 00:38:55:19
Elliott Wald
Three, four, five, six drinks in a year. Yeah, but that doesn’t lead me to want to do anything else. Talk to me about that.
00:38:55:22 – 00:39:18:03
Tal
So I didn’t I didn’t drink for four and a bit years. I was completely abstinent from everything. and know I always heard this, you know, I didn’t have a problem with alcohol and, and I think because I was so invested in, in the 12 step fellowship, it was know part of it is to be abstinent. Alcohol is a drug is they teach you.
00:39:18:09 – 00:39:19:24
Elliott Wald
Anything mind altering they say.
00:39:19:27 – 00:39:47:18
Tal
Anything mind altering. Correct. I, you know I kind of I did the for years and towards the end of the four years I started to look back at where I’d been and where I’d come from. And, you know, I, I was about to turn 30 at the time, 13, September. And I, I kind of made the decision that I didn’t want to live the rest of my life in abstinence.
00:39:47:18 – 00:40:09:11
Tal
I wanted to live a life of moderation. and I felt really strongly about it. And it’s weird because when I talk to people about it, I feel like I’m trying to convince them that. That I’m okay. Okay. but, you know, throughout that four year period, I thought about using all the time, I had, using dreams.
00:40:09:11 – 00:40:27:21
Tal
I, you know, I’d go out and I’d have to leave some places because I, I couldn’t quite trust myself or, you know, the feelings of, of wanting to use were, would bubble up and whatever. But since I have allowed myself to drink and again, I don’t drink a lot, I can go on a night out and have one glass of wine.
00:40:27:28 – 00:40:47:14
Tal
I don’t get hammered. I don’t like the feeling of being drunk. I have not once had a using thought since I’ve started drinking, and the way that I look at it is that I’ve been through so much in the last four years and I and I was was kind of talking to you about this before we, we, we’re doing the podcast.
00:40:47:16 – 00:41:05:21
Tal
There’s not a single aspect of my life that’s the same as it was when I was using. So for me, the pain is no longer there. The the need to escape is no longer there. You know, the difficulty with feelings is there, but I have many other ways to manage them. And using is just not an option. It’s not an option.
00:41:05:21 – 00:41:29:24
Tal
I have too much to lose. I have too much self-respect. I have too much pride, you know, to go back to my family and and say that I’ve used, you know, all of these things add up using it has I have no interest in that whatsoever. But what I what I do have an interest in is exploring my own my own limits within reason, because I’m never going to do coke again.
00:41:29:27 – 00:41:48:04
Tal
but you know, with alcohol I want to see if if I’m able to have a better time when I’m out with my friends by having a drink. Most of the time I’m not because, you know, because of my disposition and who I am, I’m always in my head so much. Anyway, it doesn’t do anything to me. I’ve always liked drinking wine because.
00:41:48:11 – 00:42:10:11
Tal
I don’t know, but it’s just. It’s. It’s just something that I felt that I needed to do. You know? There was an element of it that my last relationship, I, I, I felt that it would make my relationship better if I was to kind of loosen up a little bit and and explore a relationship with alcohol. it didn’t work.
00:42:10:18 – 00:42:20:29
Tal
My relationship ended, but I, I found that I’m very much able to moderate and I have I have no shame in that. And I have no issues with that.
00:42:21:01 – 00:42:21:04
Elliott Wald
With.
00:42:21:07 – 00:42:43:18
Tal
And I think, you know, I think some people that I that I still know that are still in the fellowship. Some have been completely understanding. And you know, they they say that’s great for you. It’s not for me but you know, you crack on and good and that’s great. Some people haven’t been so understanding. And and I think that’s the nature of the fellowship.
00:42:43:18 – 00:42:48:07
Tal
There’s a lot of people there’s a lot of opinions. There’s a lot of, you know, yeah, if you’re.
00:42:48:07 – 00:43:08:07
Elliott Wald
In a group, you’re going to get multiple views, correct. I mean, I did a great analogy a while ago, no biggie myself analogy. I took a little glass dessert by and I took a big would only and I put it in and I said, these pickled onions represent your brain. That’s some pickled onion juice. And I went as a glass of wine that’s a pint of beer.
00:43:08:10 – 00:43:28:13
Elliott Wald
And the pickled onion you can still see above the surface of the pickle juice. And I said, That’s fine, in my opinion. I said, I think you have to go for a period of time, three months, six months, nine months, whatever works for you of abstinence of alcohol when you stop using. But you could reach a point where you’re that pickled onion and you’re brain still surface.
00:43:28:15 – 00:43:42:02
Elliott Wald
You can still logically rational make decisions. But if you keep pouring that pickled onions juice in until the pickles submerge, until your brain can no longer think straight, your brain’s pickled, you’re going to make silly decisions. Yeah.
00:43:42:04 – 00:44:07:23
Tal
Yeah. And and the biggest thing for me was, was really that honesty. Not not with anyone else, but within myself, because I could easily convince myself that I can do a line again and not have an issue with it. But I know that that’s not true. And so the only person I’d be lying to would be me. You know, I, I think, you know, I’ve grown a lot of trust within my family and my friends that they they trust my decision making.
00:44:07:24 – 00:44:25:06
Tal
So I could easily convince them that I don’t have an issue. But the only person that’s going to suffer well is everyone but predominantly me. I’m going to lose everything that I’ve gained, and I don’t want that. So, you know, Coke is is not an option and it never will be an option.
00:44:25:10 – 00:44:43:01
Elliott Wald
That’s great. You know, I say so. I say it doesn’t matter how far you drive, you’re still the same distance from the side of the road. You know, it doesn’t matter how long you’ve been clean for how long you’ve been sober for, you’re still the same distance from the road. You just got to keep going in the right direction, correct?
00:44:43:04 – 00:44:54:06
Elliott Wald
Yeah. So, so, you know, going to wrap this up, I want to ask you a couple of other things I’ve got here. Tell me, what difference do you notice in your life now being clean from using?
00:44:54:09 – 00:45:25:05
Tal
I think the biggest difference is my relationships. not necessarily romantic, but with my family. you know, I remember not that long ago my older brother saying that he doesn’t worry about me anymore, which is a massive, massive thing for both him and me. and it means that I can, you know, my recovery is not only a gift for me, it’s a gift for them that I’ve allowed them space in their lives to to worry about other things.
00:45:25:07 – 00:45:38:07
Tal
so that’s definitely a big thing. you know, my career’s changed. I’ve gained so much clarity about who I am. I used to date women. Now I date men. You know, everything in my life is different.
00:45:38:14 – 00:45:39:00
Elliott Wald
I found.
00:45:39:00 – 00:46:04:18
Tal
You. I found me. And I’m the most me that I’ve ever been. you know, I got an ASD diagnosis about seven months ago, which was a massive eye opener, but it’s allowed me to kind of shed shed the shell and really understand what’s underneath all of it. and I’m still figuring it out. I’m still learning about myself, I’m still understanding and getting comfortable with who I am.
00:46:04:21 – 00:46:17:18
Tal
but you know, there’s not a single aspect of my life that’s the same as as when I was using in all the best ways. And I don’t really want it to be because my life was not good shit. Yeah. Shit. Yeah.
00:46:17:18 – 00:46:19:15
Elliott Wald
So my last question before we wrap up.
00:46:19:15 – 00:46:19:29
Tal
Yeah.
00:46:20:02 – 00:46:28:28
Elliott Wald
What advice would you offer someone who’s listening to this? Who’s struggling with their own usage?
00:46:29:01 – 00:46:44:06
Tal
I knew you were going to ask me that because I was thinking about it my way here, And I think what I wanted to say was, if you’re not ready, don’t bother, because there’s a lot of work and there’s a lot of pain. So if you’re not ready, wait until you’re ready. You know, keep looking for that rock bottom.
00:46:44:09 – 00:47:07:26
Tal
but when you do find it, be honest, because honesty is, is the number one thing. And, you know, like, like they say in the fellowship, honesty, open mindedness and willingness, those three things are, things that I practice daily. it’s those that have allowed me to, to be where I am, and I’ve still got a long way to go, you know?
00:47:07:26 – 00:47:20:07
Tal
No one’s ever finished or the recovery’s never done, in my opinion. but be honest, be vulnerable, be brave, because it’s fucking scary. It’s hard. It’s, it’s, it’s the hardest thing in the world.
00:47:20:10 – 00:47:20:25
Elliott Wald
Hitting hard.
00:47:20:25 – 00:47:26:00
Tal
Or stepping into a boxing ring and you’re facing yourself. Yeah. So, you know, you.
00:47:26:02 – 00:47:29:16
Elliott Wald
I like that. Stepping in that arena, facing you so is true.
00:47:29:17 – 00:47:45:18
Tal
You know, the only person you’ve got to be is your own warped thinking and your own denial and. And whatever. And, you know, if if I do it as a, you know, a bog standard run of the mill drug addict with doing all the things that they say we’re going to do, anyone can. I’m no special and different.
00:47:45:18 – 00:47:48:09
Tal
It just takes hard work and testing.
00:47:48:11 – 00:48:11:29
Elliott Wald
Before we finish, I’m going to do facial st light hearted picking up your tattoos. Yeah. So when I was 17 I had this fucking idea to get my first tattoo. So 17 I’m 17 starting because for anybody who knows, back home I started training very young because of what happened in my life. Anyway. So I’m this big guy, 17, 17 stone going through a tattoo place.
00:48:12:02 – 00:48:34:09
Elliott Wald
My first tattoo, I have a devil that size on my fucking arm. About a week later I’m thinking, What the fuck did I do? I’m this big lump with a tiny little devil. It looks a bit like a manchester United Liverpool. So it goes all you’re for the Manchester United. It Well, it took me two years before I had it covered up.
00:48:34:09 – 00:48:38:21
Tal
Amazing. You should have got an angel on the other side.
00:48:38:23 – 00:48:44:07
Elliott Wald
That’s true. Yeah. So I’ll. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here. Pleasure. Appreciate it.
00:48:44:07 – 00:48:45:02
Tal
So thank you.