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Hello, I’m Elliot Ward,

addiction specialist.

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And welcome to another episode of Coming

Clean with me.

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Joining me in the studio

today is Lewis Raymond Taylor.

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Lewis was diagnosed

with an antisocial personality disorder.

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Being emotionally unstable,

logically ruthless,

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assertive, unemotional and lacking fear.

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All traits associate with a psychopath,

and it’s a label he seems to have embraced

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one that headline

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the recent Netflix documentary about him,

The Psychopath Life Coach.

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Lewis grew up in an abusive environment

and looking to escape,

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he found alcohol and cocaine

and eventually found himself in prison.

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After beating his addictions,

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he started his own coaching company,

which is now worth 25 million.

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Joining me as we peel back the layers.

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Welcome, Lewis.

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Thank you for joining me.

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Thank you very much, mate. Wow, wow.

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Lewis, tell me what it was like

growing up for you.

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What was your childhood like?

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Give me a give me understanding.

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Yes. I think, a normal ish one to sort of

people that hang around in this state,

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getting into trouble,

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lighting fires, criminal damage.

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just being a little bit of a lad.

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What sort of age was this?

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About 12.

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Oh, young.

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Yeah. Pretty young. Yeah, I did about 14.

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I was getting arrested at 13 and.

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Getting arrested for. At 13.

Criminal damage mainly.

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I just like smashing windows

for some reason.

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Okay.

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yeah. It’s just take the,

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the hammer of the back of a bus.

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the emergency hammer was to just smash

as many windows as I could possibly find.

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Okay, not sure why.

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I think it was a bit of a cry out

for attention at the time, but,

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also get a bit of a thrill from it

and a bit of a stimulation.

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I know now that I’m,

you know, low on this emotional spectrum,

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and I think that

I just wanted to feel something.

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I think even the adrenaline,

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that I was getting from that was,

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was some kind of sensation

and fill in some kind of need or void,

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so I can look back on in hindsight,

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who knows at the time,

what was that become of me as a kid?

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You know,

he was expelled from school at 15

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and, Yeah, started

just getting involved with drugs.

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This this is go back a bit.

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Yeah. Cause

you grew up with an alcoholic father was.

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Yeah. Right. Yeah, it’s quite abusive.

Tell me about that.

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Yeah. So, I mean, it wasn’t as bad

as it could have been.

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I mean,

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I know people have a lot of worse

upbringings

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when it comes down

to this kind of stuff, but,

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it did hit me a couple of times,

but it wasn’t like, relentless.

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but to be honest,

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it was more the way he looked at me

and the way he just didn’t like me.

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Generally didn’t like man enough

to have. A relationship with you, dad.

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Now he’s dead. Okay. Yeah.

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what were you then. 21? 21?

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So did you.

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As you grew up, did you develop

a relationship with him or.

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No, not at all like I was.

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Yeah, okay.

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And I’m not sure why I did, like, why

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I mean, maybe he’s kind of similar to me

in my work,

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but this to sort of possibly

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I mean, some of the things he used to say

were ruthless.

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Like, I remember I asked him once, what

what do you think of family?

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And he said, well, they’re just people.

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And I also said to him,

what do you think happens after you die?

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And he says,

when you’re dead, you’re dead.

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You know, he said, I was thinking that.

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But some of those things just stick out.

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You know, he’s very, very ruthless

and very cold and very.

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Do you think you can that challenges

by taking the alcohol.

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100%. His mum died when he was 16.

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He. Yeah.

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He told me how his dad never told me. Why.

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and he disconnected

from his entire family.

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So I didn’t even know

that you had two sides of a family.

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I just thought that I had one

mum and dad one night and granddad,

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you know, because everyone.

My mum should. Understand. That.

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And then when someone’s told me

that they had two narrow grinders.

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What do you mean you got two now?

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And then I realized, oh,

I don’t know any of my dad’s side.

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so he was disconnected

from his whole family,

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and he didn’t have a problem with that.

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He left my stepsister

when she was seven months old.

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Just walked out,

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started a new family with, with my mum.

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But, yeah, it was

what things used to say to me.

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He’s said, look at me in the face

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and just in utter disgust, you

know, and say, you’re a bit you’re stupid.

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You never amount to anything.

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And from a young age, you know,

you do believe that stuff as well.

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So if you got to base, if.

You told something enough

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times, eventually

you’re going to start to believe it.

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Yeah, that’s what happened. Right? Yeah.

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That was reinforced

in other areas as well.

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Because, you know, if I get told that,

then I go out and I cause trouble

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getting told by school

I’m bad and getting told by,

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the community on bad and police on bad,

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and then eventually jail

and a whole pattern of, my life.

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It’s like you got given a label

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and then you did everything

to make that label fit you.

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Yeah. Reinforce it. Yeah.

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And I believe that as well, you know.

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So and my behavior was obviously creating

a cycle in which it,

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you know, justified it as well.

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I, I’m where did you at

try and gain attention from what did

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you seek attention from.

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Well, it’s

started off in a, in a productive way.

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So when I was,

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about 7 or 8 years old,

I got the idea that I wanted to be famous,

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and that was literally

because I wanted to be seen and heard.

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And I just liked the idea of fame.

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I didn’t,

so I did acting and singing and dancing.

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I didn’t particularly

like any one of those more than the other,

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but I didn’t mind them, quite enjoyed it,

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but I just wanted to be on stage

or whatever.

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So I quite enjoyed that.

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And that actually gave me something.

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I was quite enjoying that.

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But then an outlet.

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Yeah, it was something and it was.

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No, it was more of a that

because I haven’t,

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I don’t feel like I experienced love.

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So whether or not that was because my mum

and dad didn’t love me or I couldn’t

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feel it, not hundred percent sure, but

I don’t think my dad loved me and my mum,

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you know, my mum

did love me, but she didn’t express it.

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So she was from a, a very, a military

background with her mum and dad.

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So she, there was never any cuddles or

I love you or so I was never told

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I was loved, I was never cuddled

or asked how I was with my emotions.

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And the only emotion that was expressed in

my household was anger.

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So my dad would have rage.

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But apart from that, it would just be,

you know, don’t cry, don’t remember that.

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You know what you learn.

Yeah. That’s what you learn.

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Yeah. What’s your relationship?

Is your mum still alive? Yeah.

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And she was. Your relationship

right. With your mum.

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No. She’s definitely. Yeah.

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Well okay. Yeah.

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You’re, she’s she’s she’s come a long way.

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I think she’s grown a lot as she’s.

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Yeah.

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Gone through the journey

and realized a few things.

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But yeah, the outlet at the time

was the acting, singing and dancing.

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But then, I actually was sexually abused

by one of the guys at the,

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When you were 11, right?

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When I was 11, we had around 10 or 11.

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Where was that?

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So I was at the stage school was at,

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and it was just one of the guys

that was in there.

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It wasn’t like a teacher or anything.

It was one of the actual pupils.

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But he was, he was it was older than me,

but I didn’t realize how much older.

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I knew.

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There was an age gap, but it was just

like a cool age gap at the time.

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Like, oh, the guy smoking weed, cool.

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Let’s hang out.

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And, but then on reflection,

how do I really gauge that age gap?

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He could have been actually older

than I thought, so who knows?

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If he was like, I was 15, it could be 18,

I don’t know.

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But, anyway, invited me back to his house.

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I didn’t think anything of it.

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And then climbed up on the top bunk.

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And, you know, the he did.

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At the time, I didn’t really.

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And still to this day,

I’ve never felt nothing for it.

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And I don’t know

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if that’s part of this disorder,

of this complete emotional shut down.

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But you

didn’t feel one way or another about that.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I’m

a bit confused at the time thinking

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what the fuck’s happened,

but it’s not like

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I was sitting in the shower, you know,

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kind of like curled up thinking, oh,

my God, I’ve been traumatized or abused.

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I was just like,

that’s fucking weird, you know?

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what was that all about?

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And then nothing really buried it.

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but I know

it must have had some kind of impact

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because something significant like that

almost certainly.

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Well, but yeah,

I don’t feel any particular way about it.

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And what led to your first arrest

when you were 13 years old?

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A first dressed as a sit in make up,

showing off.

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Dealing. Yeah. Showing off to the girls.

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Get me this, Lewis.

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Get me that Lewis. No worries.

You know the.

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And then it was.

Yeah. The criminal damage.

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And then first time

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I went to young offenders was, stole

a van, crashed it, had some weight on me.

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Didn’t have a license or insurance

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when the young offenders for three months.

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How many times you’ve been to y.

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I, twice.

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That was an interesting.

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Where was the second place?

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went to three.

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I went to Woodhill. Woodhill?

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Only. and.

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I think that was it for a while.

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And what was that like for you

that young age?

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Woodhill was crazy

because it was like that.

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Yeah,

just close local to where I was from.

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So they shipped me there first

before we categorize them. And,

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Yeah. interesting.

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Because obviously everyone’s

had to prove himself.

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And you got people in there

for murder and stuff,

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and they’re 18 years old, and they

they’ve got nothing to lose whatsoever

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other than to build

a reputation in prison.

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Is there anything they have? Exactly.

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So, yeah, that was that was an interesting

time. But then when I came out,

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I just felt so are so untouchable.

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You know, I’ve, I’ve just been around

all these, like, the worst people

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society has to offer, and

and I’ve been for the punishment.

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You make friends that you kept

after you came.

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Out of prison. no.

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No, but it was just.

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Yeah, I was, I kind of it was around

the first thing someone asked you

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when you’re in prison is what you feel.

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And my my crimes are like.

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Oh, so that was almost embarrassed

by it. And,

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it sounds ridiculous, but, like,

I consciously must have made

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a decision, like, next time I come in, I’m

going to come in some decent, you know?

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So I left prison kind of thinking I right

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have I’m not going to commit,

which is just ridiculous.

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But, because I had

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this need for significance

and I’ve been looking at it from love.

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Didn’t get it looking at from,

you know, the actin lost.

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I’ve got a girlfriend.

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At one point, she told me she cheat on me

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and I slip my stroke

about section of the mental health Act.

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So I. Yeah, know

it jumped a bit there. You.

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I do know about this.

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And I was going to come and say

because you grew up now

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you were going out with a girl. Yeah.

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So she decided the relationship was over.

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Well, she didn’t necessarily decide that.

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But like,

we was in relationship for a year,

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and I got drunk one night

and I got bit mouthy.

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I can’t remember really, but I was

I know that I was

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obviously just starting an argument,

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and, she just told me she cheated on me,

and it just hit me like,

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Yeah.

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Ton of bricks. Like,

I felt loss, rejection.

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So in terms of emotions, I had them

at that point, like at they came up then.

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I think that was kind of the nail.

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I think my emotions were kind

of shutting down up until that age.

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and I was learning to kind of get through

life without them because of the traumas.

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And I think that

was the one that just went,

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because I felt

it just hit and I felt everything else.

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So what did you do?

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Well, I so, you know, the C read, I didn’t

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actually c read, but I can understand

what that is because I blacked out.

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I kind of went,

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I don’t know, a bit psychotic

and just smashing up her kitchen.

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I didn’t really know what I was doing,

but I was just to know.

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And then I was in a frenzy

and I pulled a draw out.

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I come out as hinges, landed on the floor,

00:11:33:24 – 00:11:36:24

and then a six inch, six

inch kitchen knife was just there.

00:11:37:17 – 00:11:42:00

And before I knew it, I just picked up

and I didn’t even realize what I’d done.

00:11:42:18 – 00:11:46:05

And then, went downstairs

and I kind of passed out, and I clipped

00:11:46:05 – 00:11:47:24

like, an artery in my neck. Very fine.

00:11:47:24 – 00:11:50:04

You can barely see it,

but there are scars there.

00:11:52:03 – 00:11:53:03

they’re big, bulbous.

00:11:53:03 – 00:11:54:09

Did you know that?

00:11:54:09 – 00:11:56:23

Yeah. That’s shit, man, did that

not not right there and then.

00:11:56:23 – 00:11:59:23

But I tried to

I didn’t try, I ran out also,

00:12:00:17 – 00:12:02:13

because I wanted to,

I was, I was hysterical.

00:12:02:13 – 00:12:04:02

I tried to fight the paramedics.

00:12:04:02 – 00:12:06:15

I didn’t let them stitch me out there

to put me down. In the end.

00:12:06:15 – 00:12:07:22

You’d been drinking, but.

00:12:07:22 – 00:12:09:23

Yeah. And I was like,

let me die. And I was crying.

00:12:09:23 – 00:12:12:00

I was just destroyed, you know,

00:12:12:00 – 00:12:13:14

because I felt the rejection

and the abandonment,

00:12:13:14 – 00:12:15:17

the loss, everything from her,

but also my family,

00:12:15:17 – 00:12:17:09

because my family had cut me off

by this point.

00:12:17:09 – 00:12:20:09

So we don’t want anything to do with you

because you keep on affecting the family.

00:12:21:12 – 00:12:24:05

and I just it just confirmed that

I was this bad, unlovable kid.

00:12:24:05 – 00:12:27:24

I kept on being told my whole life,

but with this new love, I kind of thought,

00:12:27:24 – 00:12:30:21

oh, maybe I am okay. But it was another

confirmation. Like, I never,

00:12:32:04 – 00:12:33:21

you know, I I’m bad.

00:12:33:21 – 00:12:37:18

And, yeah, I ripped off the candles out

and had Clara all over me with the

00:12:38:02 – 00:12:42:06

hospital gown and and ran up to her house,

which probably wasn’t the best idea.

00:12:42:16 – 00:12:45:00

Knocked on her door

just because. I don’t know.

00:12:45:00 – 00:12:48:00

I just wanted to say it

because, I was in love.

00:12:48:03 – 00:12:50:17

And, How old were you?

00:12:50:17 – 00:12:53:13

I was 17 or 18. Okay, so first love.

00:12:53:13 – 00:12:54:24

First love. And it’s hard. Yeah.

00:12:54:24 – 00:12:57:12

That one gets underestimated by

a lot of people. I’ve had a lot of trauma.

00:12:57:12 – 00:13:00:13

That’s probably gonna be one of my worst

in terms of the way I’ve felt.

00:13:00:13 – 00:13:03:08

Anyway.

00:13:03:08 – 00:13:05:13

And, Yeah, she opened the door

and I had nothing to say,

00:13:05:13 – 00:13:08:08

so I just stood at her blankly

and I think scared the life out of us.

00:13:08:08 – 00:13:10:08

Just called the police and I got sectioned

00:13:10:08 – 00:13:13:08

up, and Orban’s Albany Lodge

stuck me in a padded room.

00:13:14:01 – 00:13:15:07

But then the next

day, they just let me go.

00:13:16:09 – 00:13:19:09

And, When did you first start drinking

and taking cocaine?

00:13:19:23 – 00:13:22:05

So drinking was quite early

because it was not with my family,

00:13:22:05 – 00:13:23:03

like my dad was an alcoholic.

00:13:23:03 – 00:13:26:10

My mum drank a lot, so I started

drinking at 16 without like, alcopops.

00:13:26:10 – 00:13:29:10

Smirnoff

ice is down the pub or a down the park or

00:13:29:14 – 00:13:31:13

white light and inside a devil.

00:13:31:13 – 00:13:32:19

I don’t think they made us glass,

00:13:32:19 – 00:13:35:10

but I don’t think they make those bottles

of alcopops anymore.

00:13:35:10 – 00:13:37:21

I think I know I haven’t seen them,

those wicked and.

00:13:37:21 – 00:13:39:20

Yeah. Bacardi Breezer.

00:13:39:20 – 00:13:41:21

I reckon they make Bacardi Breezer

like those anymore.

00:13:41:21 – 00:13:42:23

And that’s the reason why.

00:13:42:23 – 00:13:45:21

Yeah, yeah, they were nice. Yeah,

00:13:45:21 – 00:13:46:16

they said a fair few of them.

00:13:46:16 – 00:13:48:15

Oh, just a big bottle of cider.

That’ll do.

00:13:48:15 – 00:13:50:10

£2 back in the day.

00:13:50:10 – 00:13:52:10

3 or 4l of it. And

00:13:54:04 – 00:13:56:23

but that

was just obviously recreational stupidity.

00:13:56:23 – 00:13:59:16

But then it started getting a bit worse.

00:13:59:16 – 00:14:02:10

around 17.

00:14:02:10 – 00:14:04:11

and by 18,

obviously the nightclubs and stuff.

00:14:04:11 – 00:14:07:03

And then that’s. Yeah. Was

how you first started taking Coke.

00:14:07:03 – 00:14:09:20

That’s when I started taking coke,

and I was just started selling it as well,

00:14:09:20 – 00:14:12:20

actually start selling it

exactly the same time I started taking it.

00:14:12:22 – 00:14:13:21

Okay. Let me understand.

00:14:13:21 – 00:14:16:04

You’ve never used it before.

00:14:16:04 – 00:14:19:08

Yeah, but you decide to sell it

and use at the same time.

00:14:19:08 – 00:14:20:11

Yeah, well, my friends,

00:14:20:11 – 00:14:23:23

a couple of my mates were starting

to sell it and I was thinking.

00:14:24:08 – 00:14:26:19

And I was also

they would take it, taking it,

00:14:26:19 – 00:14:29:02

but I wasn’t because I thought

I knew what I was like.

00:14:29:02 – 00:14:32:19

My behavior at 16 years old,

I used to drive around to the bookies

00:14:32:19 – 00:14:35:19

and watch people play the roulette

just because I wanted to fucking watch,

00:14:36:00 – 00:14:38:24

because I was so obsessed with any, any,

any form of addiction.

00:14:38:24 – 00:14:40:14

I’m just on it.

00:14:40:14 – 00:14:42:22

even with no money,

I would just sit there for hours

00:14:42:22 – 00:14:45:08

just watching that fucking roulette

wheel spin.

00:14:45:08 – 00:14:46:24

Slightly impulsive, right? Yeah.

00:14:46:24 – 00:14:48:09

And just anything I can do.

00:14:48:09 – 00:14:50:16

Anything to get that dopamine hit

or to fill that void

00:14:50:16 – 00:14:54:04

or to feel something because I’m

so feel like I’m so emotionally bankrupt,

00:14:54:17 – 00:14:57:12

I will use I, I’ll use

00:14:57:12 – 00:14:59:19

whether it’s a substance or it’s a thing,

I will try it.

00:14:59:19 – 00:15:03:10

And I knew if I touched that cocaine,

now that’s fucking game over.

00:15:03:10 – 00:15:07:11

So I did that for quite a few months

and then but then they started selling

00:15:07:11 – 00:15:08:02

it and I thought,

00:15:09:02 – 00:15:10:18

you know, I’ve had it.

00:15:10:18 – 00:15:12:00

I’ve always had a business mind,

00:15:12:00 – 00:15:15:06

although, you know, back then it hadn’t

really materialized into anything.

00:15:15:18 – 00:15:18:12

But my mind kind of work that way.

00:15:18:12 – 00:15:20:22

So I just thought, well,

I’m probably gonna start taking it now

00:15:20:22 – 00:15:22:02

and they’re going to start selling it.

00:15:22:02 – 00:15:24:23

So I’d prefer to be one that

sell it than them.

00:15:24:23 – 00:15:29:07

so I just bought some salsa and taken it

and did it right.

00:15:29:07 – 00:15:31:06

You know, it was very small time

drug data,

00:15:31:06 – 00:15:34:08

but at the time it was quite big

for the little village that I was from,

00:15:35:07 – 00:15:36:14

making like a couple of grand a week.

00:15:36:14 – 00:15:39:14

Had a few lines, few people

working for me, cutting it out.

00:15:39:15 – 00:15:41:11

So, you know, just some low level.

00:15:41:11 – 00:15:44:08

You’ve moved up a little bit.

Yeah, a little bit like real runners.

00:15:44:08 – 00:15:47:07

I had a couple of runners

in terms of like in the village.

00:15:47:07 – 00:15:49:04

So what are you buying houses

at that point?

00:15:49:04 – 00:15:50:04

Yeah, a couple of houses.

00:15:50:04 – 00:15:52:16

But I also started selling methadone.

00:15:52:16 – 00:15:53:10

meow meow.

00:15:53:10 – 00:15:55:22

Okay. Yeah.

And that was by big loads of that.

00:15:55:22 – 00:15:58:05

That was selling out in lumps,

00:15:58:05 – 00:16:00:21

getting like kilos of benzocaine

and cutting it all up.

00:16:00:21 – 00:16:03:21

And when it was illegal, it was legal.

00:16:03:23 – 00:16:06:09

I used to start giving out fliers

around the pub selling there.

00:16:06:09 – 00:16:07:04

Yeah, it was legal.

00:16:07:04 – 00:16:09:17

And then it, then it went to legal

and I obviously I didn’t give a shit.

00:16:09:17 – 00:16:11:04

So I’m like, I just don’t keep selling it.

00:16:12:17 – 00:16:14:02

And you started using at this point.

00:16:14:02 – 00:16:14:16

Yeah. Yeah. No.

00:16:14:16 – 00:16:15:17

And then drugs got bad.

00:16:15:17 – 00:16:18:00

I was doing like four days in a row.

No way. No sleep.

00:16:18:00 – 00:16:19:08

And you were a binge.

00:16:19:08 – 00:16:21:17

Yeah. So you did

you start off as a binge watch.

00:16:21:17 – 00:16:23:06

It progressed to becoming a binge.

00:16:23:06 – 00:16:27:24

I used to be like,

one night out and a night until 6 a.m.

00:16:27:24 – 00:16:30:00

and the birds come out,

and then I’d be like all depressed.

00:16:30:00 – 00:16:32:10

Birds,

as in the girls or the birds. Between the.

00:16:32:10 – 00:16:34:00

Chicken. Yeah, yeah.

00:16:34:00 – 00:16:36:18

So you’d be out getting on at some six

clock in the morning.

00:16:36:18 – 00:16:39:00

It’s a social thing. It’s. Yeah.

Then what happened?

00:16:39:00 – 00:16:41:10

And then the meow meow.

00:16:41:10 – 00:16:43:10

That seemed to have less of a come down.

00:16:43:10 – 00:16:45:13

So the tweet tweet didn’t

didn’t put me off.

00:16:45:13 – 00:16:46:23

It was like, oh the shops are open.

00:16:46:23 – 00:16:49:23

I’m gonna go get another bottle

and another pack of fags.

00:16:50:09 – 00:16:51:18

and then it turned into four days.

00:16:51:18 – 00:16:52:09

And then it used to

00:16:52:09 – 00:16:56:04

it was just a case of until my buddy body

shut down, like I’d start hallucinating,

00:16:56:04 – 00:16:57:20

and then I would start to, like,

get to the point where

00:16:57:20 – 00:17:00:15

I just couldn’t actually function,

and then I’d crash.

00:17:00:15 – 00:17:02:13

Was this on your own?

Were you doing this on your own or with.

00:17:02:13 – 00:17:04:18

No. I would be like group sessions.

00:17:04:18 – 00:17:06:12

I’d make money as well

because I’d be the one selling that.

00:17:06:12 – 00:17:10:02

So I just have this load of drugs

and then people would be coming in and out

00:17:10:06 – 00:17:13:07

different groups of people,

but I would be the one remaining out

00:17:14:01 – 00:17:16:21

and, I finished, you know,

finish a four day session in May.

00:17:16:21 – 00:17:17:24

Couple of grand. You know, I was, I.

00:17:19:04 – 00:17:21:03

you were expelled from school 15 years.

00:17:21:03 – 00:17:22:23

Yeah. Well, how did that come about?

00:17:22:23 – 00:17:24:06

Oh, I’ve always been a naughty kid.

00:17:24:06 – 00:17:27:02

Like, even in primary school,

I was almost expelled.

00:17:27:02 – 00:17:29:13

just never.

00:17:29:13 – 00:17:29:19

I’ve.

00:17:29:19 – 00:17:33:08

Something I’ve never understood

is the, hierarchy of authority.

00:17:33:08 – 00:17:36:08

I just don’t get it. So now,

00:17:36:20 – 00:17:38:16

that understand

how people put so much power

00:17:38:16 – 00:17:41:16

and weight on other people

when they are just people?

00:17:42:01 – 00:17:43:10

something

I just can’t quite get my head around.

00:17:43:10 – 00:17:46:10

But it was a

it was actually written in my,

00:17:47:20 – 00:17:49:17

when I got expelled in the letter,

00:17:49:17 – 00:17:52:06

the exact words Lewis is expelled

00:17:52:06 – 00:17:55:06

for refusing

to accept the authority of stuff

00:17:55:11 – 00:17:58:11

because I would just not listen

and just not do what they said.

00:17:58:24 – 00:18:00:22

continuously.

00:18:00:22 – 00:18:02:16

you just didn’t like authority? No.

00:18:02:16 – 00:18:03:23

And it’s what it sent me later on in life.

00:18:03:23 – 00:18:05:13

Because it means

I could have taken my own path

00:18:05:13 – 00:18:06:14

and I haven’t, you know, felt

00:18:06:14 – 00:18:09:18

the need to take these traditional routes

that people feel like they’re pigeonholed

00:18:09:18 – 00:18:13:22

into unnecessarily is beneficial

or for a lot of time beneficial.

00:18:15:02 – 00:18:17:16

But, yeah, I

mean, loads of things happened in school,

00:18:17:16 – 00:18:20:19

but the final piece was just made

for refusing to cooperate.

00:18:21:14 – 00:18:24:14

And then you started to to kind of like,

00:18:24:18 – 00:18:27:04

enjoy the violence, enjoy the crime.

00:18:27:04 – 00:18:30:09

Well, actually, at first

I used to not get, I wasn’t violent,

00:18:30:09 – 00:18:33:09

so I didn’t throw my first punch

until I was,

00:18:34:01 – 00:18:35:16

around 17.

00:18:35:16 – 00:18:36:23

I used to get jumped a lot.

00:18:36:23 – 00:18:38:13

So when my dad hit me, I used to freeze.

00:18:38:13 – 00:18:40:18

When I got that sexual abuse

that time, I froze.

00:18:40:18 – 00:18:45:07

So I got into this sort of freeze mode

and and I was skinny as well,

00:18:45:21 – 00:18:48:08

and I’d never I wasn’t

so I wasn’t the big hard man.

00:18:48:08 – 00:18:51:13

So the only thing I had to

my name was kind of the crazy guy.

00:18:51:13 – 00:18:53:14

So I was okay, crazy cocky Larry.

00:18:53:14 – 00:18:55:14

So I would

I would get crazy popularity people

00:18:55:14 – 00:18:57:21

and they would jump

me and I would just lie on the floor,

00:18:57:21 – 00:19:00:04

let me, me,

and then stand back up and start laughing.

00:19:00:04 – 00:19:01:11

And I wouldn’t fight back.

00:19:01:11 – 00:19:03:18

And that was my thing at the time.

00:19:03:18 – 00:19:06:18

And then,

there was one night in a nightclub

00:19:06:21 – 00:19:10:09

where I just came up to a guy

that a jumped me previously,

00:19:10:20 – 00:19:13:17

and, it’s kind of like how

I slipped my throat that time.

00:19:13:17 – 00:19:16:00

I just involuntary

didn’t think about it at all.

00:19:16:00 – 00:19:18:11

Is it

actually an accident or subconscious?

00:19:18:11 – 00:19:21:05

Something happened,

and I just punched him in the face,

00:19:21:05 – 00:19:22:20

and I just don’t fucking

know what I just done.

00:19:24:03 – 00:19:26:20

And then I got into

a fight, and I kind of won that fight,

00:19:26:20 – 00:19:30:00

and I got kicked out by the bouncers, and

I just thought, I’ve just felt powerful.

00:19:30:00 – 00:19:30:24

I just thought, wow.

00:19:30:24 – 00:19:33:02

This is it. That was your new drug.

This is it.

00:19:33:02 – 00:19:35:09

So I’ve been looking for I’ve been looking

at fucking all these areas.

00:19:35:09 – 00:19:36:21

And it was didn’t hit the didn’t hear.

00:19:36:21 – 00:19:37:23

But this hits it like.

00:19:37:23 – 00:19:40:23

This I mean I it’s interesting

because I’ve got a couple of clients

00:19:41:01 – 00:19:44:13

at the moment for cocaine addiction

and specifically one of them

00:19:45:21 – 00:19:46:11

he’s quite young.

00:19:46:11 – 00:19:49:11

He’s in his 20s and he runs the youth

00:19:49:19 – 00:19:52:22

side of the football hooligans and lives

00:19:52:22 – 00:19:56:05

for the violence, loves the violence,

is highly addicted to the violence.

00:19:56:10 – 00:19:57:03

And that was you.

00:19:57:03 – 00:19:58:09

You got through from it?

00:19:58:09 – 00:20:01:02

Yeah. In fact,

you were a thrill seeker. Yeah.

00:20:02:02 – 00:20:04:02

And then tell me,

00:20:04:02 – 00:20:07:02

how often were you using the coke?

00:20:07:12 – 00:20:10:08

It would be four days every week.

00:20:10:08 – 00:20:14:01

That’d be four days on, three days off

to recover and kind of get mad straight.

00:20:14:01 – 00:20:14:07

And then.

00:20:14:07 – 00:20:15:09

It was a four day binge.

00:20:15:09 – 00:20:17:10

Four dive engine

and three days of recovery.

00:20:17:10 – 00:20:20:10

And then four days a week on there

for like seven years.

00:20:20:10 – 00:20:21:18

For the last seven years.

00:20:21:18 – 00:20:23:16

That was the no, no, it was seven years.

00:20:23:16 – 00:20:27:00

And the unresolved grief

of your dad’s death in the past, abuse

00:20:27:00 – 00:20:30:00

inflicted on

you sent you to self-destruction mode.

00:20:30:08 – 00:20:32:11

you became a rep in in Napa.

00:20:32:11 – 00:20:34:04

Yeah, yeah. So that was one of my.

00:20:34:04 – 00:20:37:18

So one of the fights

I had, I broke my jaw.

00:20:38:23 – 00:20:42:24

I’ve had my jaw broken, teeth knocked

out of a knife, all sorts of crazy things.

00:20:43:11 – 00:20:46:11

But, one of the times

that my jaw actually hanging off

00:20:46:23 – 00:20:49:22

and as a part of that operation or

something that happened during that time,

00:20:49:22 – 00:20:53:15

I can’t remember exactly what it was,

but they I tore my gullet and,

00:20:54:07 – 00:20:57:24

I started having this expanded chest,

and then my voice went, oh, funny.

00:20:58:09 – 00:21:01:09

And, then I was sick and dizzy and stuff.

00:21:01:09 – 00:21:05:03

And then I went into the ambulance

and they, I said I’d surgical emphysema.

00:21:05:13 – 00:21:06:06

Said, what the hell was that?

00:21:06:06 – 00:21:08:04

And they said, basically,

there’s there’s air that’s

00:21:08:04 – 00:21:11:07

going around your chest, in your heart,

and it’s coming through your esophagus.

00:21:11:07 – 00:21:12:09

And it will continue to do that

00:21:12:09 – 00:21:15:11

to puts pressure on your heart, lungs

until your heart and lungs

00:21:15:11 – 00:21:18:01

will put too much pressure.

You’ll die was like, okay,

00:21:19:10 – 00:21:21:02

sitting kedo it’s a crazy thing.

00:21:21:02 – 00:21:23:13

Like I couldn’t care less.

00:21:23:13 – 00:21:26:13

and they said,

we’re gonna have to do an operation

00:21:26:19 – 00:21:29:07

and there’s a 30% chance of mortality.

00:21:29:07 – 00:21:30:19

You have to sign this waiver to say that

00:21:30:19 – 00:21:32:19

if we did this operation,

the third child should die.

00:21:32:19 – 00:21:35:13

But even if you survive, you’re going

to be intensive care for six months.

00:21:35:13 – 00:21:38:04

We’re gonna have to put a tube

in your throat so you can breathe.

00:21:38:04 – 00:21:41:04

Tube in your, bowels so you can eat.

00:21:41:20 – 00:21:43:08

and I think there. Was.

00:21:43:08 – 00:21:44:10

A tear in the gullet.

00:21:44:10 – 00:21:45:09

Okay.

00:21:45:09 – 00:21:48:12

And, and a colostomy bag,

and they said it’s for six month.

00:21:48:12 – 00:21:52:14

It should be in intensive care so that

that that, gullet could heal without any.

00:21:52:14 – 00:21:54:14

Because if anything goes

in, it gets infected. You die

00:21:55:14 – 00:21:57:08

as a cool, No worries.

00:21:57:08 – 00:22:00:08

And they sign a paperwork, and then,

00:22:00:20 – 00:22:01:19

I was like, no regrets.

00:22:01:19 – 00:22:02:22

So I took a picture like that.

00:22:02:22 – 00:22:03:21

That’s taken care.

00:22:03:21 – 00:22:07:01

And, And I said, if I get out of this,

I want to travel

00:22:07:14 – 00:22:10:05

because I want to live my life more

because I’ve just been in the kitchen

00:22:10:05 – 00:22:12:13

so I can get in on the session

for the last seven years.

00:22:12:13 – 00:22:13:20

I think I can do a bit better than this.

00:22:13:20 – 00:22:16:23

So when I travel, had dreams

of all sorts of travel in Asia

00:22:16:23 – 00:22:19:23

and all sorts of things,

but it didn’t quite materialize like that.

00:22:20:08 – 00:22:23:01

But anyway, I when I am, and

this is another sort of interesting thing

00:22:23:01 – 00:22:25:19

with the anti-social personality disorder,

which we’ll have to touch.

00:22:25:19 – 00:22:29:14

but one of the interesting things about

people that get analyzed with having,

00:22:31:15 – 00:22:33:24

psychopathy is,

00:22:33:24 – 00:22:37:24

when they are presented

with high stress situations or,

00:22:39:00 – 00:22:43:05

even very, violent or extreme situations,

like seeing dead bodies

00:22:43:05 – 00:22:46:05

or things like that,

that they don’t just normal,

00:22:46:05 – 00:22:49:05

normal people’s spike and,

you know, they their heart goes up.

00:22:49:07 – 00:22:51:24

Psychopaths don’t just stop, go steady.

00:22:51:24 – 00:22:53:20

They actually they actually lower.

00:22:53:20 – 00:22:56:04

They actually become calm, okay?

00:22:56:04 – 00:22:59:15

Because they, they I don’t know, they just

it’s just the way their brain works.

00:22:59:15 – 00:23:02:22

It just they, they learn to adapt,

to be able to cope with those scenarios.

00:23:02:22 – 00:23:05:15

That’s why they’re quite good

in high stress situations.

00:23:05:15 – 00:23:11:07

So military or politicians

or CEOs, 33% of CEOs, psychopaths,

00:23:12:00 – 00:23:14:08

because they don’t just thrive

in that environment.

00:23:14:08 – 00:23:16:08

They’re actually in their element in that.

00:23:16:08 – 00:23:18:12

And 43% of CEOs are psychopaths.

00:23:18:12 – 00:23:21:09

Yeah. That’s a that’s a real.

I haven’t read that.

00:23:21:09 – 00:23:22:06

Yeah they are.

00:23:22:06 – 00:23:26:17

But if that’s a source that’s likable

then that’s very interesting.

00:23:26:17 – 00:23:27:15

Yeah.

00:23:27:15 – 00:23:32:01

And so yeah, I went to

I thought I’d go to like Napa and Magaluf

00:23:32:01 – 00:23:34:19

and stuff like that on my way

through to Thailand and stuff,

00:23:34:19 – 00:23:37:20

but it ended up just being chaos

because I took myself with me,

00:23:39:02 – 00:23:41:09

you know, and I was just as.

00:23:41:09 – 00:23:43:16

Yeah, it was obviously a recipe for,

for disaster.

00:23:43:16 – 00:23:47:09

I just started drinking, waking

up, drinking, fighting.

00:23:47:14 – 00:23:49:23

And I was just. Yeah,

it was just absolute chaos.

00:23:49:23 – 00:23:51:03

I won’t go into all the war stories

00:23:51:03 – 00:23:53:14

of all the crazy young behavior,

but you can just imagine.

00:23:53:14 – 00:23:55:05

Oh, that’s a question later

on. Don’t worry.

00:23:55:05 – 00:23:55:12

I was,

00:23:55:12 – 00:23:59:01

I guess that person, you were diagnosed

with the bipolar disorder,

00:23:59:07 – 00:24:01:20

and then you put a nice

anti-psychotic medication.

00:24:01:20 – 00:24:04:20

Yeah. So before that. So when I was,

00:24:05:06 – 00:24:08:04

so I, I was alleged to have to say,

00:24:08:04 – 00:24:12:04

you know, to hit someone with a bottle

in a nightclub and bit his abdomen.

00:24:12:04 – 00:24:15:04

And I also then got in a fight

with four guys, me and my friend.

00:24:15:07 – 00:24:18:16

So at one point

I had five GBH and an affray.

00:24:19:08 – 00:24:22:09

And, I was looking at,

eight years in prison

00:24:22:22 – 00:24:26:04

and even my probation officer

was recommended me at the time for a nip,

00:24:26:06 – 00:24:28:21

which is an indefinite public protection

order, which is a life sentence.

00:24:28:21 – 00:24:30:21

And I didn’t even know what it was,

and I didn’t care.

00:24:30:21 – 00:24:32:15

And she was I’ve just.

They’ve just stopped IPA.

00:24:32:15 – 00:24:33:13

They’ve abolished them. No.

00:24:33:13 – 00:24:38:13

The Polish types, although people on IEPs

currently are still serving their term.

00:24:38:13 – 00:24:40:22

Yeah. I haven’t looked to them yet. So

yeah that’s it.

00:24:40:22 – 00:24:43:09

But I would still be in. I’d still be in

if I’d have had one of those.

00:24:43:09 – 00:24:46:09

But at the time I had no idea what it was,

so I couldn’t care less.

00:24:46:20 – 00:24:51:02

And, my probation when you go

for a pre-sentence report before court,

00:24:51:22 – 00:24:52:22

you know, everybody knows

00:24:52:22 – 00:24:56:20

go on your best behavior and, you know,

hopefully you might get a better sentence.

00:24:57:04 – 00:24:58:17

I hope I did the complete opposite.

00:24:58:17 – 00:25:00:18

So I, I just couldn’t care less.

00:25:00:18 – 00:25:02:09

And she said you not care

about all the time

00:25:02:09 – 00:25:04:14

you’re going to do

I said no, I don’t care about the victims.

00:25:04:14 – 00:25:06:00

No. And

00:25:07:19 – 00:25:09:15

yeah, she wrote out the worst probate

00:25:09:15 – 00:25:12:15

pre-sentence report you can imagine, then

sent me for the psychiatric assessment.

00:25:12:22 – 00:25:14:16

And the psychiatric assessment

was the first one

00:25:14:16 – 00:25:17:16

that diagnosed me

with the antisocial personality disorder.

00:25:17:17 – 00:25:19:19

I just disregarded that and just thought,

well,

00:25:19:19 – 00:25:21:24

you obviously think that

because I’ve just done all these things.

00:25:21:24 – 00:25:22:09

Do you think.

00:25:22:09 – 00:25:24:21

Do you think that using the cocaine

00:25:24:21 – 00:25:28:20

we attributed to the psychotic and,

and psychopaths behavior

00:25:28:23 – 00:25:30:15

and there’s a real before

before we was that?

00:25:30:15 – 00:25:33:15

Let me explain this,

that I actually know someone,

00:25:34:08 – 00:25:38:16

very well indeed, actually,

who got into using cocaine

00:25:38:21 – 00:25:42:06

quite a number of years ago, socially,

as most people do.

00:25:42:06 – 00:25:44:21

And it became more and more frequently,

00:25:44:21 – 00:25:48:09

and it got him so much

that he became slightly psychopath.

00:25:48:09 – 00:25:51:16

In fact,

he ended up chopping up his landlord,

00:25:52:01 – 00:25:55:05

putting the body parts in his car

and driving around the country,

00:25:55:05 – 00:25:56:13

throwing a leg out, an arm out.

00:25:56:13 – 00:25:58:13

And I think he’s serving 35 years.

00:25:58:13 – 00:26:00:08

I suppose that’s slightly for a slightly.

00:26:00:08 – 00:26:03:08

I consider a psychopath,

but I know for a fact

00:26:03:08 – 00:26:05:05

I’ve known this guy for like 30 years.

00:26:05:05 – 00:26:06:03

But I know for a fact

00:26:06:03 – 00:26:09:03

before I knew him, way before we ever did

a line that way before that.

00:26:09:13 – 00:26:13:02

And I’m can tell you

this change this person from the person

00:26:13:02 – 00:26:15:06

he was to a person who was able to chop up

a body

00:26:15:06 – 00:26:17:20

and throw body parts

out of the car, drive around the country.

00:26:17:20 – 00:26:22:08

Do you think your usage attributes it

to where you are now?

00:26:23:00 – 00:26:26:24

It definitely attribute to it with

if it was, a cause of it, I don’t know.

00:26:26:24 – 00:26:31:14

I think it, I think there’s a potential

for it to be underlying and, you know,

00:26:33:06 – 00:26:34:06

do you inhibitions to be

00:26:34:06 – 00:26:37:20

completely removed when you are under

the influence of certain things?

00:26:38:14 – 00:26:40:11

impulse control is gone, you know?

00:26:40:11 – 00:26:45:06

So is this guy probably had the ability

to cut someone up if he had to.

00:26:45:06 – 00:26:48:15

That was, you know, logical

and sensible enough to not,

00:26:50:16 – 00:26:53:16

but, under the influence and, you know,

00:26:55:10 – 00:26:58:11

probably has more of a chance

of been able to do that, so who knows.

00:26:58:11 – 00:27:00:13

Yeah, it

definitely has an influence for sure.

00:27:00:13 – 00:27:03:13

And then it was yeah,

it was a few years later when I,

00:27:03:24 – 00:27:05:07

I went for another assessment.

00:27:05:07 – 00:27:06:24

And then, then they, they said bipolar.

00:27:06:24 – 00:27:08:07

But that one was completely wrong.

00:27:08:07 – 00:27:10:11

That was just because I was up and down.

00:27:10:11 – 00:27:11:19

Drugs come down.

00:27:11:19 – 00:27:13:23

I mean, of course

I was going to show symptoms of bipolar.

00:27:14:22 – 00:27:16:08

I was on drugs off at the time,

00:27:16:08 – 00:27:17:16

but they just look at it on paper

00:27:17:16 – 00:27:19:20

and they took the symptoms list

and then they, you know,

00:27:19:20 – 00:27:22:08

but the antipsychotics give me seizures

right away.

00:27:22:08 – 00:27:23:19

So that’s epileptic. Yeah.

00:27:23:19 – 00:27:27:12

So I didn’t know that at the time,

but so I stopped taking that

00:27:27:19 – 00:27:28:22

then they had made me feel like a zombie.

00:27:28:22 – 00:27:31:00

Anyway.

You’re not taking any medication. No.

00:27:31:00 – 00:27:31:14

Not for that.

00:27:31:14 – 00:27:34:14

No, I do take for epilepsy, but,

00:27:35:14 – 00:27:38:13

Yeah, I took him literally for

a couple of days and fell like a zombie.

00:27:38:13 – 00:27:40:03

And then the decision was,

I’m not taking that.

00:27:40:03 – 00:27:42:00

Well,

00:27:42:00 – 00:27:44:04

and then I got another,

and then in prison,

00:27:44:04 – 00:27:45:01

I did another assessment,

00:27:45:01 – 00:27:46:21

and they diagnosed me

with an emotionally unstable

00:27:46:21 – 00:27:48:21

personality disorder,

which is, borderline.

00:27:48:21 – 00:27:52:06

So it’s like, now I’ve got a triple, so

one of them’s one of them’s got me wrong.

00:27:52:08 – 00:27:54:04

I can’t have all three. Surely.

But maybe I’ll do it.

00:27:54:04 – 00:27:55:24

I don’t know, I don’t think I do.

00:27:55:24 – 00:27:58:21

I think the only one that’s close

is the antisocial personality disorder.

00:27:58:21 – 00:28:01:18

And the reason I say that is because

at the time, I thought it was nonsense.

00:28:01:18 – 00:28:04:14

Because it was the things I was doing.

It was a lifestyle was leading.

00:28:04:14 – 00:28:09:00

But now I’ve changed my life

and I don’t do those crazy things anymore.

00:28:09:00 – 00:28:11:24

Actually, most of those traits

are actually still there,

00:28:11:24 – 00:28:14:02

but I just channeled them

in different areas.

00:28:14:02 – 00:28:14:14

Right.

00:28:14:14 – 00:28:18:13

But the way that I fundamentally

feel pretty similar then to now,

00:28:19:13 – 00:28:20:21

I just outwardly do different things,

00:28:20:21 – 00:28:23:21

and I’ve learned to control my behavior,

and I know what’s right and what’s wrong.

00:28:24:22 – 00:28:28:10

but I could still identify with quite

a lot of the things that were in that I.

00:28:28:11 – 00:28:31:14

What tragic event

led to your last final imprisonment?

00:28:32:19 – 00:28:37:09

So I was in a taxi queue,

drunk, coked up for 4 a.m..

00:28:37:10 – 00:28:41:24

Last sort of taxis home kind of thing,

and jumped to the front of the taxi queue

00:28:42:12 – 00:28:45:24

and, guy started

shouting and screaming in my face

00:28:46:22 – 00:28:49:07

and, it’s no excuse for it at all.

00:28:49:07 – 00:28:51:06

But this is genuinely what happened.

00:28:51:06 – 00:28:55:22

I just remember, even now, to this day,

my dad grabbed me by the throat.

00:28:55:22 – 00:28:56:21

I can’t even remember.

00:28:56:21 – 00:28:59:08

I don’t even know what this guy

looked like. I can just think of my dad.

00:29:01:11 – 00:29:04:21

I wasn’t usually triggered like that

because usually it wasn’t this.

00:29:04:21 – 00:29:05:22

This guy was actually older.

00:29:05:22 – 00:29:07:07

I was 24 at the time.

00:29:07:07 – 00:29:10:07

This guy was 40. So,

00:29:10:07 – 00:29:12:00

but usually I would fight people my age,

00:29:12:00 – 00:29:15:00

you know, in the clubs

and what have you. But,

00:29:15:21 – 00:29:17:19

so I wasn’t usually triggered in that way.

00:29:17:19 – 00:29:20:19

But that particular time, coincidentally,

I was triggered.

00:29:20:24 – 00:29:23:19

You were using it that day.

Using Coke that day, you said. Oh, yeah.

00:29:23:19 – 00:29:26:19

I was just coming back from a night out,

so I was just mad. And,

00:29:27:20 – 00:29:29:06

Yeah, he actually came up to me.

00:29:29:06 – 00:29:32:13

He was the aggressor, but I swung a punch

and hit him, and he, he hit his head

00:29:32:13 – 00:29:35:13

straight on the ground headfirst

like a thud.

00:29:35:15 – 00:29:39:03

And everyone turned around and looked and,

Oh, you’re lucky.

00:29:39:11 – 00:29:40:22

A very lucky. Yeah, actually.

00:29:40:22 – 00:29:43:01

Well, I thought he was dead,

so I put my coat over his head.

00:29:43:01 – 00:29:44:14

So it was dead. You incredibly lucky.

00:29:44:14 – 00:29:46:20

I’ve got a friend of mine

who’s working the door. News.

00:29:46:20 – 00:29:48:09

A guy took a swing at him.

00:29:48:09 – 00:29:48:22

He did.

00:29:48:22 – 00:29:52:03

He ducked, hit the guy

once, blown his head on the floor.

00:29:52:03 – 00:29:54:15

He got up, went home. Died that night.

00:29:54:15 – 00:29:56:22

friend of mine serving 12 years.

00:29:56:22 – 00:29:58:09

so you’re incredibly lucky.

00:29:58:09 – 00:30:01:23

Yeah, well, I’m lucky twice, because

that happens the first time with the GBH.

00:30:01:23 – 00:30:03:21

The guy had a brain hemorrhage first time.

00:30:03:21 – 00:30:08:01

And then when I was 25, the guy

that brain hemorrhage just over two GBH.

00:30:08:02 – 00:30:09:11

Was that one I’m in jail. For, though.

00:30:09:11 – 00:30:11:07

So the last one, the GBH charge.

00:30:11:07 – 00:30:12:11

How long did you serve?

00:30:12:11 – 00:30:15:20

I, I got I would have got three years,

but because I pleaded guilty at the scene,

00:30:15:20 – 00:30:17:11

I waited for him to arrive.

00:30:17:11 – 00:30:21:00

You used to get third or for guilty,

but I got half off, so I got 18 months.

00:30:21:03 – 00:30:21:23

Okay.

00:30:21:23 – 00:30:24:23

serve nine

and then did the rest on probation.

00:30:25:08 – 00:30:28:20

And when did things change for you

in terms of cocaine usage?

00:30:30:11 – 00:30:31:17

It was.

00:30:31:17 – 00:30:32:11

It was in prison.

00:30:32:11 – 00:30:35:11

So I got sentenced to that third prison

sentence

00:30:36:03 – 00:30:39:03

for GBH.

00:30:40:20 – 00:30:43:20

I just realized that.

00:30:44:01 – 00:30:46:09

If I wanted my life to change,

I had to change myself.

00:30:46:09 – 00:30:48:13

And I know that sounds so obvious

to people like us

00:30:48:13 – 00:30:52:10

somewhere in this situation,

but I’d never even thought about that.

00:30:52:10 – 00:30:54:04

I never thought somebody could change.

00:30:54:04 – 00:30:56:03

I just thought they are who they are.

00:30:56:03 – 00:30:59:13

And you can maybe change the things

you do, but not the person you are.

00:30:59:20 – 00:31:01:16

But for some reason I kind of just got it.

00:31:01:16 – 00:31:04:22

The I can’t blame everything

and everyone around me,

00:31:04:22 – 00:31:07:22

and I’ve got to look at myself,

and I realize that I was the problem,

00:31:08:04 – 00:31:11:07

and the realization that I was

the problem led me to this realization.

00:31:11:07 – 00:31:12:14

I was the solution.

00:31:12:14 – 00:31:14:23

This happened in like a few seconds

and it all kicked off

00:31:14:23 – 00:31:18:02

because I spoke to my friend on the phone

and he said that there was a picture

00:31:18:06 – 00:31:22:11

of me on Facebook the day I was sentenced

outside court, and a picture of me

00:31:22:11 – 00:31:26:04

seven years before outside the exact

same courtroom and said,

00:31:27:10 – 00:31:28:13

Crown Court.

00:31:28:13 – 00:31:31:16

And above it, the caption,

nothing changes.

00:31:32:02 – 00:31:33:10

And for some reason that was it.

00:31:33:10 – 00:31:36:07

Just random

things can sometimes just click.

00:31:36:07 – 00:31:38:17

And I thought,

oh yeah, nothing has changed.

00:31:38:17 – 00:31:41:16

Seven years have just gone like that

00:31:41:16 – 00:31:44:13

and I’m back in jail.

00:31:44:13 – 00:31:47:03

and I’m going to end up here and another

seven years if I don’t change something.

00:31:47:03 – 00:31:49:01

And I for some reason,

I’ve got it that it was me.

00:31:49:01 – 00:31:50:23

And what did you do to change?

00:31:50:23 – 00:31:51:19

I made a big decision.

00:31:51:19 – 00:31:53:01

I just like I just

00:31:53:01 – 00:31:55:22

because I tried to make changes before,

but they were just stupid.

00:31:55:22 – 00:31:56:16

Small little.

00:31:56:16 – 00:31:57:12

I’ll see how it goes.

00:31:57:12 – 00:31:59:20

I’ll try this out. I’ll try that out.

I stopped going here.

00:31:59:20 – 00:32:01:00

I stop hanging out with him,

00:32:01:00 – 00:32:04:00

you know, start drinking a bit more beer

and less vodka.

00:32:04:04 – 00:32:08:16

you know, only only give in the weekend,

all that sort of stuff.

00:32:08:16 – 00:32:11:23

But this time

I just made a drastic I’m going to.

00:32:12:00 – 00:32:14:20

And I got quite obsessed

with a sort of fantasy idea of him

00:32:14:20 – 00:32:17:18

completely changing my identity

like I was.

00:32:17:18 – 00:32:19:03

I remember thinking about,

00:32:19:03 – 00:32:21:18

like, Frank William Havoc

now from Catch Me If You Can, thinking

00:32:21:18 – 00:32:24:03

like, I’m going to change my name,

I’m going to move abroad.

00:32:24:03 – 00:32:27:05

I’m going to be like, I’m going to become

someone entirely different.

00:32:27:05 – 00:32:28:19

And when you stopped using cocaine,

00:32:28:19 – 00:32:32:10

did you did you change your circle,

your environment?

00:32:32:19 – 00:32:36:11

What did you what did you actually

structurally do to to make that change?

00:32:36:11 – 00:32:38:04

Well, first of all,

I did the Rehabilitation

00:32:38:04 – 00:32:40:14

of Addicts of Prisoners

Trust wrapped program in prison.

00:32:40:14 – 00:32:44:10

It was a six week program

that kind of opened my eyes to addiction,

00:32:44:10 – 00:32:46:14

because I just thought

it was more of a habit.

00:32:46:14 – 00:32:50:03

Lifestyle didn’t really realize the

the depths of the psychology around

00:32:50:03 – 00:32:53:09

why I was doing it, but even that was

scratching the surface, to be honest.

00:32:53:09 – 00:32:57:02

And then when I was in there,

they offered the ability to go to rehab,

00:32:57:12 – 00:33:00:06

and I was, about to be released

from my sentence.

00:33:00:06 – 00:33:02:12

And I was doing these, mvcs in there.

00:33:03:11 – 00:33:04:08

no functional skills.

00:33:04:08 – 00:33:05:24

Sorry. Not even in Vicki’s

functional skills.

00:33:05:24 – 00:33:07:08

Math, English.

00:33:07:08 – 00:33:10:08

And one day I punched a wall

because an exam was coming up.

00:33:11:13 – 00:33:13:23

and it’s because I was scared

of proving my dad wrong.

00:33:13:23 – 00:33:16:17

right about being this stupid idea

that you thought I was.

00:33:16:17 – 00:33:18:15

And anyway,

as they were taking me to the hospital

00:33:18:15 – 00:33:20:03

because there’s no hospital

in this prison.

00:33:20:03 – 00:33:22:14

The Mount prison.

There’s no hospital in there.

00:33:22:14 – 00:33:26:07

they took me past where I was from, and

I just as soon as I looked out the window

00:33:26:07 – 00:33:30:09

and I saw my old grounds, I just felt like

nothing had changed whatsoever.

00:33:30:18 – 00:33:32:20

I just felt like I was ready to literally

step out that door

00:33:32:20 – 00:33:35:06

into the park once again

and just crack on.

00:33:35:06 – 00:33:36:08

I hadn’t even been in jail.

00:33:36:08 – 00:33:40:10

I was like two different lives, and I just

paused one and just press play again.

00:33:40:10 – 00:33:41:22

And I was back.

00:33:41:22 – 00:33:44:10

And I knew

in that moment that I could never go back.

00:33:45:24 – 00:33:46:14

so this

00:33:46:14 – 00:33:49:18

guy came into the rehabilitation program

inside prison, and he said,

00:33:49:19 – 00:33:53:01

this is an opportunity to go to do

six months rehab in Portsmouth.

00:33:53:21 – 00:33:55:11

And I thought, I gotta do that.

00:33:55:11 – 00:33:56:04

I’ve got to do that.

00:33:56:04 – 00:33:58:10

So I applied for it and it was a 20 grand.

00:33:58:10 – 00:34:00:17

Grant

and I had to go through this application

00:34:00:17 – 00:34:02:05

process, and I didn’t

even think I was going to get it

00:34:02:05 – 00:34:05:18

because I was still in the denial of,

oh, I’m not that bad, but I got it.

00:34:06:09 – 00:34:09:00

And they picked me up from the prison

gate.

00:34:09:00 – 00:34:10:00

the day of release.

00:34:10:00 – 00:34:11:23

Literally bundle me in a car.

00:34:11:23 – 00:34:16:02

They didn’t give me a second to even,

you know, even think about anything else

00:34:16:02 – 00:34:19:11

and drove me down to Portsmouth and

then put that as my registered address.

00:34:19:22 – 00:34:23:08

And I started a whole process of rehab

where they broke me down and built me up

00:34:23:08 – 00:34:25:13

because I thought they were going to

teach me to not drink. Cannot take drugs.

00:34:25:13 – 00:34:28:13

But turns out they taught me

00:34:28:14 – 00:34:31:12

why I needed to use drink and drugs

and taught me more about myself.

00:34:31:12 – 00:34:32:13

And was the reason why.

00:34:34:01 – 00:34:35:10

It turned out it was.

00:34:35:10 – 00:34:39:14

It stemmed from my dad,

obviously, daddy issues.

00:34:39:14 – 00:34:40:08

There, there.

00:34:40:08 – 00:34:44:07

Well, I know his daddy issues, but I think

it’s certainly a traumatic upbringing.

00:34:44:09 – 00:34:46:14

Yeah. And that we look for an escape.

00:34:46:14 – 00:34:49:17

I think it’s a very common thing

that I see talking to people

00:34:49:17 – 00:34:53:00

who’ve got addictions, had addictions,

past, present, future, etc..

00:34:53:13 – 00:34:56:03

I think I’ve built my, I was one session.

00:34:56:03 – 00:34:58:10

I mean, I was very defiant

when I first got and I was like a kid

00:34:58:10 – 00:35:00:09

who’s literally wearing tracksuit,

like wearing a tracksuit.

00:35:00:09 – 00:35:01:11

Man down my trousers.

00:35:01:11 – 00:35:04:11

I’ve doing this shit because one of those

idiots, like, I don’t know how the hell

00:35:05:00 – 00:35:08:00

I’m turning to him now, but,

00:35:08:03 – 00:35:11:03

So anyway, I was like that, and,

00:35:11:10 – 00:35:14:13

a couple of months in, I started to being

a bit open and receptive to things.

00:35:15:22 – 00:35:17:14

but anyway, at one point I said,

I know what you’re trying to do.

00:35:17:14 – 00:35:20:24

You’re trying to brainwash me because

I didn’t like the idea of normality.

00:35:20:24 – 00:35:22:04

I really didn’t like the idea of that.

00:35:22:04 – 00:35:23:15

I didn’t want to be like them,

00:35:23:15 – 00:35:25:24

wanted to be like

I remember the authority and everything.

00:35:25:24 – 00:35:29:18

I just didn’t like the idea of it. and,

00:35:30:22 – 00:35:31:23

I said, are you trying to brainwash me?

00:35:31:23 – 00:35:34:04

And one of the prison officers

said, another prison officer. Sorry.

00:35:34:04 – 00:35:37:05

The, rehab counselor

said, looks, your best thinking.

00:35:37:13 – 00:35:41:13

You’re absolute best thinking

is put you into prison and now into rehab.

00:35:41:21 – 00:35:44:09

Maybe your brain needs a good wash.

00:35:44:09 – 00:35:45:04

And I actually thought.

00:35:45:04 – 00:35:47:07

You’re right. Actually,

my way isn’t working.

00:35:47:07 – 00:35:49:12

I need to try somebody else’s way.

00:35:49:12 – 00:35:51:11

And that was what I started to do.

00:35:51:11 – 00:35:53:19

So that’s

what happened in that moment in time.

00:35:53:19 – 00:35:58:17

You had got fed up with all the punishment

that you’d received.

00:35:59:01 – 00:36:03:09

Prison, prison and prison repeating the

same process ended up in the same place.

00:36:03:18 – 00:36:05:24

And now you finally had an opportunity,

00:36:05:24 – 00:36:07:14

and that’s what you did,

and you took your opportunity.

00:36:08:13 – 00:36:09:22

and I think you should be proud of that.

00:36:09:22 – 00:36:11:01

Thank you.

00:36:11:01 – 00:36:14:01

I think it’s also very hard

when you you had an addiction,

00:36:14:02 – 00:36:17:00

as I have, and all my guests have

00:36:17:00 – 00:36:19:08

to not relapse at some point

00:36:19:08 – 00:36:22:10

when you’re getting clean,

we will have a couple of relapses.

00:36:22:20 – 00:36:26:13

Some people have multiple relapses,

but we all have at least a relapse or two

00:36:26:17 – 00:36:29:14

before we finally get to

that point of this.

00:36:29:14 – 00:36:30:06

Is it.

00:36:30:06 – 00:36:33:08

This is flag in the sand time

you had that experience.

00:36:34:09 – 00:36:37:09

Well, we’ve got a lot to get to before

I get to that point. But,

00:36:39:13 – 00:36:40:21

my name is a way around.

00:36:40:21 – 00:36:41:05

Okay.

00:36:41:05 – 00:36:45:23

So, so actually my relapse is actually

not far happening at the moment.

00:36:46:24 – 00:36:50:02

I did six years completely clean and sober

without a drop.

00:36:50:02 – 00:36:51:03

Like, I was ruthless of it.

00:36:51:03 – 00:36:54:11

Like they taught me drink leads to

and drink

00:36:54:11 – 00:36:57:14

and drug laws, jails, institutions, death.

00:36:57:14 – 00:37:00:04

Those are the three things.

And I believed. It. So many people.

00:37:00:04 – 00:37:00:17

It’s true.

00:37:00:17 – 00:37:00:22

Yeah.

00:37:00:22 – 00:37:03:24

No, I yeah, it is true

and I and I let them create that limit.

00:37:04:02 – 00:37:07:02

Well that in whatever belief that is

I let them create that in my brain

00:37:07:02 – 00:37:08:19

because I thought that’s going to serve me

well.

00:37:08:19 – 00:37:12:04

And, I was even worried sometimes

when people would give me, mince pie

00:37:12:04 – 00:37:15:07

and fucking custard, I was like,

is there fucking no brandy in that?

00:37:15:07 – 00:37:16:12

Like, this is something.

00:37:16:12 – 00:37:20:07

And as soon as I tasted it, I know what

I’m like because I’m so black and white.

00:37:20:08 – 00:37:22:13

My brain, my brain just goes,

you’ve taken a drink.

00:37:22:13 – 00:37:23:12

You may as well just have a drink.

00:37:23:12 – 00:37:25:16

Imagine, just get on the drugs.

You’ve done it now it’s too late.

00:37:25:16 – 00:37:27:03

You’re an all or nothing mentality.

00:37:27:03 – 00:37:29:03

Just the pendulum swings like that.

00:37:29:03 – 00:37:32:15

So honestly, if I would have had

a tiny bit of brandy and that mince pie

00:37:32:15 – 00:37:36:09

and it just cooked out all gone, well,

honestly, that’s just how I was.

00:37:36:20 – 00:37:37:11

So I would

00:37:38:13 – 00:37:39:24

so I was completely

00:37:39:24 – 00:37:42:24

clean for six years and then,

00:37:43:20 – 00:37:44:19

yeah, I did relapse.

00:37:44:19 – 00:37:46:21

And then it was kind

of a couple of on and off.

00:37:46:21 – 00:37:49:21

What was it that triggered you to relapse

after six years?

00:37:50:05 – 00:37:52:19

Because I think that’s really interesting

for the listeners, because a

00:37:52:19 – 00:37:56:10

lot of people are either going through it

to get there or once you get there,

00:37:56:16 – 00:37:59:04

there’s a lot of people listening

who who have been there and also relapse.

00:37:59:04 – 00:38:01:19

So let’s try and,

you know, focus in, drill down on

00:38:01:19 – 00:38:03:21

what was what was the reason

you realized that was.

00:38:03:21 – 00:38:06:18

The first one was,

00:38:06:18 – 00:38:09:12

caused quite deep, this one to get into

and explain it properly.

00:38:09:12 – 00:38:12:09

But I met my,

00:38:12:09 – 00:38:15:09

girlfriend who became my wife.

00:38:15:24 – 00:38:18:06

at an event in Barcelona.

00:38:18:06 – 00:38:19:17

she was from America.

00:38:19:17 – 00:38:22:17

I was from the UK,

but she was in Barcelona.

00:38:22:19 – 00:38:25:17

And, after three days,

I was like, quit your job.

00:38:25:17 – 00:38:26:11

Stay with me.

00:38:26:11 – 00:38:27:14

This traveled the world together,

00:38:27:14 – 00:38:29:24

and I thought I was giving

her this fairytale life,

00:38:31:03 – 00:38:33:06

because

I thought that’s what every woman wants,

00:38:33:06 – 00:38:36:07

you know, to be swept off

her feet and looked after for everything.

00:38:36:07 – 00:38:38:20

And that’s, you know, it’s lived

this crazy life that everyone.

00:38:38:20 – 00:38:41:20

So dreams of of adventure. And,

00:38:42:22 – 00:38:45:23

I just couldn’t get my head around

why she didn’t feel too grateful about it,

00:38:45:23 – 00:38:49:02

and she didn’t feel happy,

and she almost resented me a little bit,

00:38:49:10 – 00:38:50:16

quite a lot at the time.

00:38:50:16 – 00:38:55:06

And, I didn’t get it, but it transpired

that I thought I was just traveling,

00:38:55:17 – 00:38:56:13

getting to travel,

00:38:56:13 – 00:38:58:11

I thought I was helping,

I travel the world, but really,

00:38:58:11 – 00:39:00:16

what I was doing

was just taking it with me, you know?

00:39:00:16 – 00:39:02:04

And actually,

she wanted to be at home with her

00:39:02:04 – 00:39:03:22

family, and she’s, she’s from Venezuela.

00:39:03:22 – 00:39:05:10

She’s a, you know, family girl.

00:39:05:10 – 00:39:07:17

And I’d taken her away from her life.

00:39:07:17 – 00:39:09:13

And, it caused,

00:39:11:14 – 00:39:14:06

an issue in the relationship to the point

where we,

00:39:14:06 – 00:39:17:08

we decided to go on a break

and had to go back to America to see if,

00:39:17:10 – 00:39:19:16

you know, she really wanted to be with me

because I was like,

00:39:19:16 – 00:39:21:12

I want you to come back

and feel grateful for me

00:39:21:12 – 00:39:24:12

or want you to stay and realize that

that’s what you want.

00:39:24:18 – 00:39:28:00

And in that decision, I thought

that’s going to be hard for her to make.

00:39:28:17 – 00:39:30:14

So I’ll tell you what.

I’m going to make it for you.

00:39:30:14 – 00:39:32:07

I’m going to sabotage it.

00:39:32:07 – 00:39:32:23

So I’m going to.

00:39:32:23 – 00:39:35:18

Consciously did this. Yeah.

So I went right.

00:39:35:18 – 00:39:39:06

and I had to I had to premeditate this

because I was in Dubai at the time

00:39:39:06 – 00:39:41:18

we were living in Dubai, and I’d literally

just bought this lovely apartment

00:39:41:18 – 00:39:44:12

and all the furniture and it’s like,

look what we’ve got. And she was just.

00:39:44:12 – 00:39:45:18

She told me she’s lonely.

00:39:45:18 – 00:39:49:14

I don’t know, I know I shouldn’t,

of course, because that’s valid.

00:39:49:14 – 00:39:53:00

But I was just thinking, so like,

I’ve given you everything I’ve got

00:39:53:00 – 00:39:55:01

and it’s not enough

because I can’t go to America.

00:39:56:01 – 00:39:58:10

because I’m not coming a record, and.

00:39:58:10 – 00:40:00:15

And it just felt like everything

I did wasn’t enough.

00:40:00:15 – 00:40:02:19

And then it was my problem,

but it was just.

00:40:02:19 – 00:40:04:13

So you found a dealer?

00:40:04:13 – 00:40:05:14

How did you. Know it wasn’t.

00:40:05:14 – 00:40:06:04

It wasn’t drugs.

00:40:06:04 – 00:40:09:00

It was alcohol. So I but it was

it was premeditated in a sense.

00:40:09:00 – 00:40:10:08

Where in Dubai at the time.

00:40:10:08 – 00:40:10:24

I don’t know if it’s changed

00:40:10:24 – 00:40:14:14

now, but I had to go to the shop

and I had to apply for an alcohol license

00:40:15:02 – 00:40:16:11

to get some drink from the shop.

00:40:16:11 – 00:40:18:07

You can get in hotels,

but from like a shop.

00:40:18:07 – 00:40:19:17

So I had to apply for an alcohol license.

00:40:19:17 – 00:40:21:12

I had to sit there waiting for it

to be processed

00:40:21:12 – 00:40:23:10

and do all this stuff and get this card.

00:40:23:10 – 00:40:24:15

And then I was like, okay.

00:40:24:15 – 00:40:27:15

And then I bought a bottle of wine and,

just drank a bottle of wine

00:40:27:21 – 00:40:29:07

and then and it was, you know what?

00:40:29:07 – 00:40:32:16

Like it was actually

all right for a little bit like a ton of

00:40:32:16 – 00:40:34:17

I shouldn’t say this because it’s

not the best message to share.

00:40:34:17 – 00:40:38:02

But for a little while I thought,

oh, actually, I can have a few drinks.

00:40:38:02 – 00:40:41:22

Yeah, but do you know, it’s

a very classic thing when you say that is,

00:40:41:22 – 00:40:42:19

a lot of people relax.

00:40:42:19 – 00:40:43:22

But I go, this one

00:40:43:22 – 00:40:47:13

I haven’t used for a month, three months,

a year, whatever the period of time.

00:40:47:24 – 00:40:51:01

And then they’ll relapse,

whether it be alcohol or cocaine.

00:40:51:15 – 00:40:53:14

And they’ll be like, well,

it wasn’t as bad as I used to be.

00:40:53:14 – 00:40:55:23

Yeah, yeah,

I’ve only done it once in a month.

00:40:55:23 – 00:40:57:17

If I only did it once a month,

that’s not a problem.

00:40:57:17 – 00:40:59:04

If anything, once a month isn’t an issue.

00:40:59:04 – 00:41:01:05

But I was doing it every day. Yeah.

00:41:01:05 – 00:41:03:10

And then what happens is

they start doing it once a month, right?

00:41:03:10 – 00:41:04:20

And then it becomes once a week.

00:41:04:20 – 00:41:07:23

And it’s the same pattern

that got them in there in the first place.

00:41:07:23 – 00:41:10:05

Yeah. They’re repeating that’s true.

And that’s what happened.

00:41:10:05 – 00:41:12:12

With me as well

because I’ve I’ve relapsed a few times.

00:41:12:12 – 00:41:15:09

I can’t even remember now,

but quite a quite a few times on and off,

00:41:15:09 – 00:41:18:22

what happens with me as well as when I,

when I have that realization that, oh,

00:41:18:22 – 00:41:20:09

I’m actually okay now.

00:41:20:09 – 00:41:24:00

I don’t have that problem

as much as I used to, is that point

00:41:24:00 – 00:41:27:02

where I go, let your guard down,

you can drink, and then I get drunk

00:41:27:15 – 00:41:30:03

and then I blackout

and then God knows what happens.

00:41:30:03 – 00:41:32:19

So, that happened a few times,

but then I would then get clean

00:41:32:19 – 00:41:35:19

for another six months and be like,

God, I’m not doing that again.

00:41:35:19 – 00:41:37:06

But then they say,

00:41:37:06 – 00:41:39:15

watch out for your lows,

but also watch out for eyes.

00:41:39:15 – 00:41:40:09

Absolutely.

00:41:40:09 – 00:41:43:06

And it was

00:41:43:06 – 00:41:45:24

it wasn’t long ago when, Netflix came out

00:41:46:24 – 00:41:48:10

and I was getting invited

00:41:48:10 – 00:41:51:24

to premieres and celebrity parties,

and I thought, you know what?

00:41:52:08 – 00:41:54:09

I thought, you know what?

00:41:54:09 – 00:41:54:24

That made it.

00:41:54:24 – 00:41:56:23

You know, it doesn’t matter now.

00:41:56:23 – 00:41:59:16

Yeah.

00:41:59:16 – 00:42:01:02

and again, the beginning.

00:42:01:02 – 00:42:01:22

And it was okay.

00:42:01:22 – 00:42:04:16

It was like I could have

a couple of glasses of champagne.

00:42:04:16 – 00:42:06:21

no cocaine at the time. You. No.

00:42:06:21 – 00:42:10:02

But then one day I had some cocaine, and

then four days later, I realized, fuck.

00:42:10:09 – 00:42:11:01

Oh, no.

00:42:11:01 – 00:42:15:18

So you relapse with coke,

and then you were on a binge immediately.

00:42:15:24 – 00:42:19:14

Yeah, whereas the alcohol, you relapse,

but it was kept in moderation

00:42:19:14 – 00:42:20:08

for a period of time.

00:42:20:08 – 00:42:20:13

Yeah.

00:42:20:13 – 00:42:23:24

With Coco, once

I’m on, I can’t stop with alcohol.

00:42:23:24 – 00:42:25:08

It it gets like that.

00:42:25:08 – 00:42:28:05

But until there’s

a build up to get to that.

00:42:28:05 – 00:42:28:18

Okay.

00:42:28:18 – 00:42:33:16

And what was the final,

final thing that made you go, right?

00:42:33:16 – 00:42:35:20

This this is this is this is it, though.

00:42:35:20 – 00:42:37:14

Yeah. Well, I’m still working on still.

00:42:37:14 – 00:42:39:23

Well, you’re still a work in progress.

I’m still an. Awesome.

00:42:39:23 – 00:42:42:04

There’s nothing wrong with. There’s

nothing wrong with saying no.

00:42:42:04 – 00:42:43:18

Not my has to be honest, it.

00:42:43:18 – 00:42:45:09

Was only a little while ago that my,

00:42:46:12 – 00:42:49:05

I don’t want to touch on this too much

because it’s still sort of.

00:42:49:05 – 00:42:50:10

Not quite.

00:42:50:10 – 00:42:52:17

It’s still. Yeah,

00:42:52:17 – 00:42:54:05

sensitive, said my wife.

00:42:54:05 – 00:42:59:00

But we’ve we’ve split up and my son’s in

America and I can’t get into America.

00:43:00:07 – 00:43:03:22

so I’m now like on my own,

which makes it even more difficult

00:43:03:22 – 00:43:07:17

because there’s no, like, wife

to tell me not to or no.

00:43:07:17 – 00:43:09:09

Nervous of being on your own.

00:43:09:09 – 00:43:10:13

I’m not nervous, but I know that.

00:43:10:13 – 00:43:11:16

I don’t know

if cannabis is the right word.

00:43:11:16 – 00:43:13:18

What I mean is, honestly,

when you stop myself.

00:43:13:18 – 00:43:14:22

Yeah, that’s what I meant. Yeah.

00:43:14:22 – 00:43:17:14

You had somebody there

to keep an eye on you.

00:43:17:14 – 00:43:19:15

Exactly.

And I knew that. I can’t get on it.

00:43:19:15 – 00:43:22:15

I can’t have a drink

because I’ve pissed off and quite rightly.

00:43:22:15 – 00:43:24:10

And also, she care about me.

She won that for me.

00:43:24:10 – 00:43:27:15

But now I think, well, I could actually.

00:43:27:15 – 00:43:28:20

Yeah. And it’s my decision.

00:43:28:20 – 00:43:31:14

And then it gets in my head and,

and I’ve been on and off.

00:43:31:14 – 00:43:35:07

I’ve been Yeah, I’ve been drinking on

and off for a little bit.

00:43:36:02 – 00:43:37:03

keep on flipping back.

00:43:39:06 – 00:43:40:04

especially when you get like

00:43:40:04 – 00:43:43:11

a, like, I know it’s a little bit

like it’s going to sound really arrogant.

00:43:43:12 – 00:43:45:10

They’re not. Aaron.

What’s the word? Show it off.

00:43:45:10 – 00:43:47:16

But but like, if I get on a business.

00:43:47:16 – 00:43:51:12

I used to dream about business

class flights and, like, got on a business

00:43:51:12 – 00:43:53:06

class flight when they come out,

they came over.

00:43:53:06 – 00:43:55:12

I had I’ve got claims for

I think it was six months

00:43:55:12 – 00:43:57:04

and they came over to me

and they literally just

00:43:57:04 – 00:44:02:16

put a glass of champagne

on a tray into my face and fanatic’s like.

00:44:02:16 – 00:44:05:08

You know what? I actually got a side.

00:44:05:08 – 00:44:08:08

I’ve never actually thought about that,

but you’re absolutely right.

00:44:08:10 – 00:44:12:22

When you fly business class

or to lots of countries.

00:44:12:22 – 00:44:14:02

Yeah, the alcohol is included.

00:44:14:02 – 00:44:16:24

I’m on many a time. I’ve been on a plane,

of course. Never been my problem.

00:44:16:24 – 00:44:18:18

I’ve never really been a drink

has never been my issue.

00:44:18:18 – 00:44:19:08

Cocaine.

00:44:19:08 – 00:44:21:15

Yeah, I was Pablo Escobar, but, you know.

00:44:21:15 – 00:44:24:23

So imagine if they put, like, on a trial,

a line of cocaine in your face like.

00:44:24:23 – 00:44:26:14

That when I go there?

00:44:26:14 – 00:44:30:04

last time someone offered me a line, 2000

and I.

00:44:30:22 – 00:44:31:19

It was there, and I went,

00:44:32:21 – 00:44:33:12

I’ve got to go home.

00:44:33:12 – 00:44:33:21

Power in.

00:44:33:21 – 00:44:36:13

That is, You can’t tell

how empowering that is.

00:44:36:13 – 00:44:38:03

That’s like. Yeah. Fuck yeah.

00:44:38:03 – 00:44:39:08

That’s exactly how I think.

00:44:39:08 – 00:44:42:08

That’s how I think every day. Yeah.

00:44:42:09 – 00:44:45:21

so now you’ve got nobody to look after.

00:44:45:21 – 00:44:47:13

You rein you in, not look after you.

00:44:47:13 – 00:44:51:04

Keep an eye on you to make sure that

you look sensible, that you are sensible.

00:44:52:01 – 00:44:55:01

What are you going to do to ensure

that you don’t go off the rails?

00:44:56:19 – 00:44:59:19

Good question.

00:45:01:14 – 00:45:04:15

I mean, I’ve got a lot more self-awareness

now and I definitely have changed.

00:45:04:15 – 00:45:07:15

So I now my, my alcohol,

00:45:07:19 – 00:45:08:16

can escalate.

00:45:08:16 – 00:45:11:08

So like I said, I,

I can drink in moderation.

00:45:11:08 – 00:45:14:08

But then it gets more frequent

and I start getting drunk.

00:45:14:09 – 00:45:15:01

That happens.

00:45:15:01 – 00:45:18:18

But what has changed is my behavior,

my awareness.

00:45:18:24 – 00:45:24:09

So whereas before I would black out, be

violent, now that doesn’t seem to happen.

00:45:24:09 – 00:45:26:19

So luckily I’ve got

00:45:27:18 – 00:45:29:07

a bit more,

00:45:29:07 – 00:45:31:11

but it sounds like I’m in denial

now that’s I’ve gotta be careful,

00:45:31:11 – 00:45:34:02

but luckily

I’ve got a little bit more self-awareness

00:45:34:02 – 00:45:38:03

so I can look after myself

more than I could before.

00:45:38:07 – 00:45:41:07

Okay.

00:45:41:12 – 00:45:43:03

But yeah, I’m very, very early

00:45:43:03 – 00:45:45:00

in this sort of process of figuring.

Do you want to do

00:45:45:00 – 00:45:47:15

you want to stop drinking

or do you want to drink in moderation?

00:45:47:15 – 00:45:50:15

Actually, before you answer that,

let me just explain this to you.

00:45:51:12 – 00:45:54:08

I have a lot of clients come to see me.

00:45:54:08 – 00:45:57:08

Alcohol, cocaine addiction.

00:45:57:11 – 00:45:58:23

And some people who come

with a cocaine addiction

00:45:58:23 – 00:46:00:14

don’t have a problem with alcohol, right?

00:46:00:14 – 00:46:01:17

Nope. You have a misconception.

00:46:01:17 – 00:46:05:01

They think we’ve got to stop drinking

if you want to stop doing cocaine.

00:46:05:01 – 00:46:05:23

Well, that is true.

00:46:05:23 – 00:46:08:23

If alcohol is your gateway,

if you’re the sort of person that can

00:46:09:16 – 00:46:13:12

have a cider,

have a glass of wine once in a month, once

00:46:13:12 – 00:46:14:17

every couple of months,

you’re not the person

00:46:14:17 – 00:46:17:17

who has an association with alcohol,

with using cocaine, right?

00:46:17:21 – 00:46:19:15

So before you answer that question,

let me explain this.

00:46:22:02 – 00:46:24:00

Is a strategy I use to help

00:46:24:00 – 00:46:27:21

people who want to continue drinking, but

want to drink in low level of moderation.

00:46:27:21 – 00:46:30:03

And I wonder if you fit into this.

00:46:30:03 – 00:46:33:12

So many years ago,

I had an idea of a board game.

00:46:33:21 – 00:46:35:02

Okay, you’re going to just bear with me.

00:46:35:02 – 00:46:38:11

I had no idea of a board game,

and I saw this board game

00:46:38:11 – 00:46:41:11

that taught psychology students

how to revise for their degree.

00:46:41:24 – 00:46:43:18

And I thought, if this is a great concept.

00:46:43:18 – 00:46:47:13

So I phoned up two colleagues of mine,

one’s a professor and another doctor,

00:46:47:13 – 00:46:48:24

and I said, listen, what about this board?

00:46:48:24 – 00:46:51:12

Guaranteed you psychology students

how to revise their degree?

00:46:51:12 – 00:46:53:01

And they went, that’s a great idea.

00:46:53:01 – 00:46:55:18

So we started creating this board game.

00:46:55:18 – 00:46:56:23

over a period of three months.

00:46:56:23 – 00:46:58:08

We had a leatherette board made.

00:46:58:08 – 00:47:00:04

We had little brains. We moved around.

00:47:00:04 – 00:47:03:06

We had the time pieces, and we had 300

cards.

00:47:03:06 – 00:47:07:17

Was the plan which would answer all of

the studies of the degree of psychology.

00:47:08:07 – 00:47:09:21

And we got really close to completion.

00:47:09:21 – 00:47:10:21

But I was busy.

00:47:10:21 – 00:47:13:21

They were busy things, you know,

it’s like you’ve got projects on.

00:47:14:01 – 00:47:15:22

So I’ve got a little bolthole in Spain.

00:47:15:22 – 00:47:16:17

It’s just a little place.

00:47:16:17 – 00:47:18:17

And I said, so listen,

why don’t we go to my place in Spain?

00:47:18:17 – 00:47:19:14

I was like, cool.

00:47:19:14 – 00:47:22:06

We turn our phone off,

be there for like four nights

00:47:22:06 – 00:47:25:12

and, we’ll get the game done,

come back, get into production.

00:47:26:11 – 00:47:27:17

So we got to my place in Spain.

00:47:27:17 – 00:47:28:17

And I like food.

00:47:28:17 – 00:47:31:02

Food is my thing, right? I like nice food.

00:47:31:02 – 00:47:33:11

And there’s a beautiful state restaurant

not far from my place.

00:47:33:11 – 00:47:35:22

And I said to him, why don’t we go

to the state restaurant tonight?

00:47:35:22 – 00:47:37:19

You fancy going that? And that’s like,

yeah, yeah, cool.

00:47:37:19 – 00:47:40:19

So we go to this state restaurant,

and one of the professors,

00:47:40:20 – 00:47:44:03

he says to me, turns me, goes

El Mana for order a bottle of wine.

00:47:44:24 – 00:47:47:01

The first thing I thought was, well,

I’m not your dad.

00:47:47:01 – 00:47:48:11

I didn’t say this bottle.

I’m not your dad.

00:47:48:11 – 00:47:50:14

You can order what you like. Like

what are you gonna worry about me? What?

00:47:50:14 – 00:47:52:00

What you want? I said order what you want.

00:47:52:00 – 00:47:55:10

We just split the bill, and I remember,

and this is a long time ago, right?

00:47:55:14 – 00:47:58:14

2008, 2007, 2008. Somewhere around there.

00:47:58:22 – 00:48:00:00

And I remember,

00:48:01:06 – 00:48:02:07

him ordering a bottle of wine.

00:48:02:07 – 00:48:04:01

I remember it was around about 50

pounds at the time.

00:48:04:01 – 00:48:05:23

And I remember thinking to myself,

00:48:05:23 – 00:48:08:15

50 pound for a bottle of wine

like I’m a Neanderthal.

00:48:08:15 – 00:48:10:18

What do I know about one?

I mean, it seemed like a lot of money.

00:48:10:18 – 00:48:12:06

Like I was going to buy

some of a bottle of wine.

00:48:12:06 – 00:48:14:00

I can’t remember if I’ve ever bought

someone a bottle of wine.

00:48:14:00 – 00:48:15:21

I know what I spent ten, 12, 15.

00:48:15:21 – 00:48:17:14

It had the most. Yeah.

00:48:17:14 – 00:48:20:07

Anyway, he has this glass and he does this

and he does that,

00:48:20:07 – 00:48:23:00

and he does this and takes a sip

and he puts it down.

00:48:23:00 – 00:48:26:00

And during the whole meal

he drank one glass of one.

00:48:26:04 – 00:48:27:22

I found that really impressive. Right.

00:48:27:22 – 00:48:31:08

he talks the wine he takes home back

to my place with there for 3 or 4 nights.

00:48:31:14 – 00:48:34:03

It took him all 3 or 4 nights to drink

this one bottle of wine.

00:48:35:03 – 00:48:36:17

So we’re

on the plane, flying back to the UK.

00:48:36:17 – 00:48:39:17

And I turned to him

and I said, listen, professor.

00:48:41:12 – 00:48:43:03

Tell me, what were you doing with

this glass of wine?

00:48:43:03 – 00:48:44:17

He says, do you know me?

00:48:44:17 – 00:48:46:09

Taste buds on your tongue?

00:48:46:09 – 00:48:48:03

And I didn’t know the answer,

and I still can’t remember.

00:48:48:03 – 00:48:51:03

But it’s a few thousand. It was a lot,

00:48:51:08 – 00:48:51:16

he said.

00:48:51:16 – 00:48:53:16

Doesn’t it seem unfair if you don’t allow

00:48:53:16 – 00:48:55:17

all the taste buds

to enjoy the glass of wine?

00:48:55:17 – 00:48:58:05

That seemed quite logical to me.

And I went, oh, that makes sense.

00:48:58:05 – 00:49:01:16

And he said, well, what I do is I take

this and I look at the color of the one.

00:49:01:16 – 00:49:03:05

I look at the clarity of the wine.

00:49:03:05 – 00:49:05:16

I look at the reflections of light

on the surface of the wine.

00:49:05:16 – 00:49:09:06

I take a aroma, I take in a small sip,

and I bring in supply

00:49:09:09 – 00:49:14:16

all the sensitive organs of taste, smell,

sight and I get in thoroughly enjoyment.

00:49:15:06 – 00:49:18:18

And what he said to me

was this A lot of people drink

00:49:19:06 – 00:49:21:03

because they want an outcome, right?

00:49:21:03 – 00:49:22:12

They want to get drunk,

they want to get tipsy.

00:49:22:12 – 00:49:24:18

They want to forget. They want to escape.

00:49:24:18 – 00:49:25:23

He was drinking for pleasure.

00:49:27:01 – 00:49:30:03

he took enormous gratification

from a small quantity.

00:49:30:03 – 00:49:33:04

When other people drink a large quantity

and get no gratification,

00:49:33:15 – 00:49:36:04

and I’m wondering if you wouldn’t be

one of those people would be able

00:49:36:04 – 00:49:39:08

to work out a strategy

to have moderation of alcohol.

00:49:39:16 – 00:49:40:18

Because if you’re in control of

00:49:40:18 – 00:49:43:18

instead of controlling you,

maybe you won’t go down that route.

00:49:45:09 – 00:49:47:00

I’d love to.

00:49:47:00 – 00:49:50:00

I’d love to agree,

but they’re probably not.

00:49:50:00 – 00:49:52:20

You don’t think you’re capable

of being moderation?

00:49:52:20 – 00:49:55:05

I can do it for a bit,

but then the moderation just creeps up.

00:49:55:05 – 00:49:58:23

Like I remember I was doing moderation,

and then I would get my haircut.

00:49:59:04 – 00:50:01:08

Do you want a beer?

Oh, yeah. I’ll have a beer now.

00:50:01:08 – 00:50:03:00

I can have a beer when I get my haircut.

00:50:03:00 – 00:50:05:02

I was like, brilliant.

I’m allowed that now.

00:50:05:02 – 00:50:08:02

And then on the way back from

I get my haircut, you know,

00:50:08:05 – 00:50:10:01

I could have a glass of wine

there as well.

00:50:10:01 – 00:50:12:20

And it’s just my brain

just starts talking about.

00:50:12:20 – 00:50:14:10

Why you drink it,

why do you want the beer,

00:50:14:10 – 00:50:15:16

and why do you want the one?

00:50:15:16 – 00:50:16:22

I said, no, my brain just takes over.

00:50:16:22 – 00:50:19:05

And I just as soon as I have

the taste of it, I just want it.

00:50:19:05 – 00:50:21:03

But before you have the

taste, why do you want it?

00:50:22:12 – 00:50:23:17

what’s it serving you?

00:50:23:17 – 00:50:26:12

It’s giving me some kind of feeling

or stimulation,

00:50:26:12 – 00:50:28:11

which I’m pretty slapped with, that.

00:50:28:11 – 00:50:31:02

Can, you know, get that feeling

of stimulation from somewhere else.

00:50:31:02 – 00:50:33:02

I get it from work.

00:50:33:02 – 00:50:34:09

but that’s another addiction. Yeah.

00:50:34:09 – 00:50:37:11

Jim Jarmusch’s never addiction. The it is.

00:50:37:11 – 00:50:39:12

But wouldn’t you be rather addicted to the

00:50:39:12 – 00:50:42:00

addicted to the gym, addicted

to alcohol and cocaine?

00:50:42:00 – 00:50:42:22

Yeah, well, that’s what I do.

00:50:42:22 – 00:50:44:16

That’s why I guess which one

I which that’s.

00:50:44:16 – 00:50:45:09

What I have done.

00:50:45:09 – 00:50:47:16

But still ultimately sometimes you,

00:50:47:16 – 00:50:50:16

you know, eight years later,

which has been my journey,

00:50:50:19 – 00:50:53:13

I go, well, I’m now successful

because the things I wanted

00:50:53:13 – 00:50:57:00

got a life that I wanted, but

actually I already feel much different.

00:50:57:06 – 00:50:59:15

You know, it’s not like

I have this sense of

00:50:59:15 – 00:51:02:23

true happiness, fulfillment

and joy because I have this flat,

00:51:03:24 – 00:51:04:12

emotional.

00:51:04:12 – 00:51:07:17

Aspect you have cannot be happy that

if always going to be because you have

00:51:07:17 – 00:51:11:04

this flat spectrum of a psychopath,

how are you ever going to be happy?

00:51:11:04 – 00:51:12:24

I’m. I know,

00:51:12:24 – 00:51:16:01

but I can fill it

with stimulatory excitement.

00:51:16:23 – 00:51:18:06

you know, things that.

00:51:18:06 – 00:51:19:08

Yeah, I can

00:51:19:08 – 00:51:22:03

when I work or there’s projects that are

excitement or thing that’s happened.

00:51:22:03 – 00:51:26:19

Those things I can, things I can create

in my brain, I can have, you know, that’s

00:51:26:19 – 00:51:29:19

why the drugs and alcohol work for me

because it gives me a sensation.

00:51:31:13 – 00:51:34:07

Well, you not you’re not feeling less

just because you’re.

00:51:34:07 – 00:51:36:20

You don’t because you

because you’re detached from emotion.

00:51:36:20 – 00:51:39:09

You’re not feeling less.

You still have feelings.

00:51:39:09 – 00:51:41:13

Not many. They’re not really. Not many.

00:51:41:13 – 00:51:42:04

Almost none.

00:51:43:07 – 00:51:43:14

Yeah.

00:51:43:14 – 00:51:45:24

Is that what you’re watching? America?

00:51:45:24 – 00:51:48:24

No. No, we just,

00:51:49:06 – 00:51:52:06

just grew apart.

00:51:53:04 – 00:51:54:07

Yeah,

00:51:54:07 – 00:51:57:07

I had to save that one,

but we just did just grow apart.

00:51:57:11 – 00:52:01:18

How much of your success do you put down

to your, psychopathic tendencies?

00:52:02:04 – 00:52:05:04

All of that? All of it? Yeah.

00:52:05:05 – 00:52:08:22

I guess there’s some, you know,

intelligence there as well, but I.

00:52:08:23 – 00:52:11:23

I’m just very strategic, like, I’m

a very logical, can,

00:52:12:01 – 00:52:15:16

you know, visually see things,

see maps and plans and,

00:52:16:03 – 00:52:19:06

and there’s no emotional influence

that’s going to stop me and I most

00:52:19:07 – 00:52:20:13

and I, I’ve coached a lot of people,

00:52:20:13 – 00:52:23:03

I’ve tried a lot of people

and I hear their pitfalls.

00:52:23:03 – 00:52:26:03

And I just say, I just don’t have that

block, you know, that you have this.

00:52:26:06 – 00:52:26:16

This.

00:52:26:16 – 00:52:29:16

What about the emotion of being a

as an a positive,

00:52:29:20 – 00:52:32:20

the emotion of success, the emotion

of reward, the emotion of achievement?

00:52:33:03 – 00:52:37:02

I have that in the form of like craving,

of significance and power. And,

00:52:37:02 – 00:52:42:11

you know, it comes from a, an ego brain

perspective rather than a felt sense.

00:52:42:12 – 00:52:45:00

You get a good

feeling of being successful.

00:52:46:08 – 00:52:48:06

I get a stimulatory

00:52:48:06 – 00:52:52:01

buzz off the idea

of being a successful person,

00:52:52:07 – 00:52:57:07

but I don’t get a feeling of fulfillment

for being successful now.

00:52:57:20 – 00:52:59:05

Okay.

00:52:59:05 – 00:53:03:19

Do you get pleasure from anything? Sex.

00:53:04:14 – 00:53:05:07

Because it’s just.

00:53:05:07 – 00:53:07:20

Don’t look at me like that.

00:53:07:20 – 00:53:10:19

It’s not what you said before.

00:53:10:19 – 00:53:12:02

sex. Yeah. Sex.

00:53:12:02 – 00:53:13:17

Because you enjoy sex?

00:53:13:17 – 00:53:14:20

Yeah, because it’s another addiction.

00:53:14:20 – 00:53:17:00

But it’s also a it’s an obvious sensation,

you know?

00:53:17:00 – 00:53:18:07

It’s one that I can’t deny.

00:53:18:07 – 00:53:21:03

You know, anything that I can feel from,

I, you know.

00:53:21:03 – 00:53:22:11

Well, it will.

00:53:22:11 – 00:53:24:10

Be an interesting

because you like to orgasm.

00:53:24:10 – 00:53:25:22

I think that’s what you’re

trying to tell me.

00:53:25:22 – 00:53:26:06

Yeah.

00:53:26:06 – 00:53:28:06

And, well, a lot of people do, but I’m.

00:53:28:06 – 00:53:29:17

I’m coming to my point. Don’t worry.

00:53:29:17 – 00:53:31:07

I’m not just bringing it

out of the reason.

00:53:31:07 – 00:53:33:21

So a lot of people like to, to orgasm.

00:53:33:21 – 00:53:36:21

A lot of people

like to come shoot their load.

00:53:36:24 – 00:53:38:04

so they get carried away that

00:53:39:04 – 00:53:41:16

and I think the reason is this

00:53:41:16 – 00:53:43:10

if you think about dopamine seeking,

00:53:43:10 – 00:53:46:22

which is what we’re talking about

with alcohol, cocaine especially,

00:53:47:09 – 00:53:50:09

and the level of dopamine

that cocaine releases,

00:53:50:13 – 00:53:53:23

and you got to realize that dopamine is,

is not just

00:53:54:09 – 00:53:57:18

the quantity of dopamine

that’s released, it’s the speed.

00:53:57:18 – 00:54:00:01

The dopamine is released

that affects you. Right?

00:54:00:01 – 00:54:03:07

So cocaine

said in a really weird way, cocaine.

00:54:03:11 – 00:54:04:10

But so cocaine.

00:54:04:10 – 00:54:07:03

Why did that cocaine is,

00:54:07:03 – 00:54:08:17

very fast acting.

00:54:08:17 – 00:54:11:10

I’m very high on the dopamine

release level.

00:54:11:10 – 00:54:13:20

Right.

00:54:13:20 – 00:54:17:01

And I think that’s why

you were seeking that so much.

00:54:17:01 – 00:54:19:11

Because when you orgasm.

00:54:19:11 – 00:54:20:20

Right.

00:54:20:20 – 00:54:23:10

That’s about 250% more dopamine

00:54:23:10 – 00:54:26:16

in your natural, release in your body.

00:54:26:16 – 00:54:27:20

So your natural release.

00:54:27:20 – 00:54:30:20

And then let’s say

I use this example before,

00:54:31:05 – 00:54:32:18

let’s say you like chocolate, right?

00:54:32:18 – 00:54:34:08

Like, really like chocolate.

00:54:34:08 – 00:54:36:24

And you have a bar of beautiful Belgium,

00:54:36:24 – 00:54:39:24

Cadbury’s Galaxy chocolate,

whatever you like.

00:54:40:08 – 00:54:43:05

send your money to my bank account.

00:54:43:05 – 00:54:45:02

so you do that, right?

00:54:46:08 – 00:54:47:03

That releases

00:54:47:03 – 00:54:50:03

about 50% more dopamine

than your natural body.

00:54:50:08 – 00:54:53:15

Now, if you use cocaine, that releases

around about 250%

00:54:54:00 – 00:54:57:00

dopamine right in a very rapid response.

00:54:57:09 – 00:55:03:07

So if you think about the level of 250% of

dopamine, that is equivalent of orgasms.

00:55:04:11 – 00:55:07:05

and let’s go back to the fact

that you like sex and you like to orgasm,

00:55:07:05 – 00:55:08:22

because ultimately that’s

what sex is about, right?

00:55:08:22 – 00:55:11:06

You’re doing that when you get cocaine.

00:55:11:06 – 00:55:13:15

You’re getting it for orgasm

when you would cocaine,

00:55:13:15 – 00:55:15:16

who would want to go and use it?

00:55:15:16 – 00:55:17:01

and that’s what drives you.

00:55:17:01 – 00:55:20:07

Because if you don’t like certain things,

if they don’t gel

00:55:20:07 – 00:55:23:07

with your emotions, but you do like sex,

00:55:23:13 – 00:55:24:22

that’s why you like cocaine.

00:55:24:22 – 00:55:25:02

Yeah.

00:55:25:02 – 00:55:28:01

And I think that a lot of people,

they have a general level of,

00:55:29:04 – 00:55:32:17

content, joy,

fulfillment in some areas of their life.

00:55:32:17 – 00:55:34:02

You know,

maybe they have a happy family life.

00:55:34:02 – 00:55:36:15

Maybe they just feel fulfilled

in the work that they do.

00:55:36:15 – 00:55:39:24

Maybe they, are just content

with just a walk in the park

00:55:39:24 – 00:55:43:05

with their dog or a coffee or whatever,

because I just have this flatness,

00:55:43:20 – 00:55:47:16

you know, I’ve always had to feel the need

to seek some external substance

00:55:47:16 – 00:55:50:12

to fix that internal problem,

you know? Yeah.

00:55:50:12 – 00:55:52:24

and, and I’d be lying

if I said it was still that.

00:55:52:24 – 00:55:54:02

It wasn’t still there.

00:55:54:02 – 00:55:56:08

I filled it with work.

00:55:56:08 – 00:55:58:02

and there’s still

the drive is significant.

00:55:58:02 – 00:56:01:04

It’s like I still want to be

this successful, rich, famous man.

00:56:01:04 – 00:56:02:13

Because that might be.

00:56:02:13 – 00:56:07:10

Interesting

how you tie success with rich and famous.

00:56:07:21 – 00:56:09:15

Yeah, well,

I want all those things individually,

00:56:09:15 – 00:56:12:15

but they don’t necessarily

have to come at the same time.

00:56:12:20 – 00:56:15:10

But that quantify success for you?

00:56:15:10 – 00:56:17:02

Well, no, because they’re just

00:56:17:02 – 00:56:20:12

they are the closest things

to significance that I can attribute.

00:56:20:12 – 00:56:23:03

And that that is the closest thing

I can feel to love.

00:56:23:03 – 00:56:25:21

I don’t seem to be able to show love.

00:56:25:21 – 00:56:29:01

So you need external validation

for internal feelings.

00:56:29:19 – 00:56:31:11

It’s the closest I’ve been able to get.

00:56:31:11 – 00:56:35:18

I would I’m working on trying to access

those emotions in deep and profound ways.

00:56:35:18 – 00:56:38:01

In the middle of the jungle,

with all sorts of plant medicines.

00:56:38:01 – 00:56:39:09

Trust me.

00:56:39:09 – 00:56:40:10

I would go.

00:56:40:10 – 00:56:41:16

Know I’d do so.

00:56:41:16 – 00:56:44:09

And mushrooms

and see other bits and pieces.

00:56:44:09 – 00:56:44:23

Peyote.

00:56:44:23 – 00:56:47:18

But but not just that,

but also the spirit of pray.

00:56:47:18 – 00:56:51:05

And in temples, you know, and recently

and and I’ve, I’ve tried

00:56:51:05 – 00:56:55:05

all sorts of things over the years

and I want to feel I want to be happy.

00:56:55:05 – 00:56:56:12

I don’t want to

00:56:57:11 – 00:56:58:05

be I don’t

00:56:58:05 – 00:57:01:10

want to be a Nessus, actually,

I do want to be successful.

00:57:01:10 – 00:57:03:03

And I you know, I like what I do.

00:57:03:03 – 00:57:06:21

I don’t want to feel the need

to have all those that validation,

00:57:08:00 – 00:57:11:15

but it’s kind of all I have

because without it, I just feel flat,

00:57:12:15 – 00:57:13:08

you know?

00:57:13:08 – 00:57:16:09

So I’m working on trying

to open those emotions and and there’s

00:57:16:09 – 00:57:20:04

a flicker there, you know, it’s not like

I know it’s completely dormant.

00:57:20:04 – 00:57:23:22

I remember reading a book on somebody who

I can’t remember the name of the person,

00:57:24:15 – 00:57:29:17

but I read a book on somebody who had

a dissociation with their emotions.

00:57:29:17 – 00:57:32:04

So, yeah, it’s very similar

to what we’re talking about.

00:57:32:04 – 00:57:35:04

And they travel the world

to look for a solution.

00:57:35:17 – 00:57:36:23

And they went to this.

00:57:36:23 – 00:57:38:04

They went to Haiti.

00:57:38:04 – 00:57:39:19

It’s how you see the how you pronounce it.

00:57:39:19 – 00:57:43:02

They went to Haiti

and they came across these,

00:57:43:08 – 00:57:45:14

this group of people,

and they went to them to say, listen,

00:57:45:14 – 00:57:50:08

I have this, addiction and I’m depressive

and I have no emotions.

00:57:50:08 – 00:57:53:16

And they they gave them all the reasons

they were coming to see them.

00:57:54:00 – 00:57:57:08

And I’ve heard that you’re the witch

doctor and that you can resolve this.

00:57:57:21 – 00:58:00:03

And this witch doctor says, yes, I can.

00:58:00:03 – 00:58:03:17

And he puts this man in a cage,

like a wooden cage.

00:58:03:17 – 00:58:04:16

Like a box?

00:58:04:16 – 00:58:06:21

No, not much bigger than the man

himself, right.

00:58:06:21 – 00:58:11:07

It was completely bamboo

clear, stripped down to naked.

00:58:12:06 – 00:58:15:04

Witch doctor says you

want to find the solution to your problem.

00:58:15:04 – 00:58:16:21

I’m going to put you in this box.

00:58:16:21 – 00:58:19:21

And then they came along,

and they cartel slit his throat,

00:58:19:21 – 00:58:21:12

and they put the blood in a bowl.

00:58:21:12 – 00:58:24:18

And every single person from the tribe

came along, put their hand on the blood,

00:58:24:21 – 00:58:26:01

and touched the man inside.

00:58:26:01 – 00:58:28:23

And afterwards he said in his book,

00:58:28:23 – 00:58:31:21

it was the most powerful,

00:58:31:21 – 00:58:34:16

emotional, fulfilling

00:58:34:16 – 00:58:38:16

experience that lifted my depression,

the lifted my emotions,

00:58:38:22 – 00:58:41:22

that made me suddenly have feelings again.

00:58:42:21 – 00:58:45:19

And when you look at the book

and you think about this, actually

00:58:45:19 – 00:58:49:15

what he was describing is this the way

to get feelings, in his opinion,

00:58:50:14 – 00:58:54:02

was to associate with other people,

be around other people,

00:58:54:12 – 00:58:57:15

to be attached to other people, then

put in the blood and they were tortured.

00:58:57:15 – 00:58:59:14

They were showing their love.

They were showing their feelings.

00:58:59:14 – 00:59:01:11

The love wasn’t necessarily,

I’m telling you, I love.

00:59:01:11 – 00:59:04:01

But they were connected.

There was a connection there. Right?

00:59:04:01 – 00:59:06:23

And he saw that people cared about him.

00:59:06:23 – 00:59:08:02

In fact, there was one bit I left.

00:59:08:02 – 00:59:11:01

He had to go and find the cow or goat.

00:59:11:01 – 00:59:12:10

They slit the throat.

00:59:12:10 – 00:59:17:01

And that go into around the community

to find that that goat or the cow

00:59:17:13 – 00:59:20:01

was opening up a rapport building, talking

00:59:20:01 – 00:59:23:01

to other people,

taking his mind off of his own problems.

00:59:23:01 – 00:59:26:16

And sometimes when you externalize,

instead of internalizing,

00:59:27:02 – 00:59:30:00

you get a different clarity

and perspective.

00:59:30:00 – 00:59:30:13

Don’t you think

00:59:31:18 – 00:59:32:10

it’s interesting?

00:59:32:10 – 00:59:34:20

Yeah,

I wonder how that would have played out.

00:59:34:20 – 00:59:38:20

And maybe he felt some sort of emotion

for sacrificing an animal.

00:59:38:20 – 00:59:39:17

That’s true.

00:59:39:17 – 00:59:42:10

If because if you didn’t have any emotion,

you don’t have,

00:59:42:10 – 00:59:45:10

he he wouldn’t have had the negative ones

or the positive ones.

00:59:45:18 – 00:59:47:10

and maybe that brought

something out in him as well.

00:59:47:10 – 00:59:48:16

That’s true.

00:59:48:16 – 00:59:51:16

you set up the coaching masters,

and it would be nice of me

00:59:51:21 – 00:59:54:14

to not talk about the coaching masters.

00:59:54:14 – 00:59:57:06

within a few years,

the business has skyrocketed.

00:59:57:06 – 01:00:00:00

And how did you and your partners

achieve this?

01:00:00:00 – 01:00:02:02

I started small, I was just helping people

01:00:02:02 – 01:00:05:03

in, Costa Coffee for free over,

you know, have a chat.

01:00:05:03 – 01:00:08:10

Because I realized

that all the things in a a and an A and a

01:00:08:10 – 01:00:11:10

and or the rehab six months that I did,

I just learned so much.

01:00:11:20 – 01:00:16:08

And I’d listen to people’s rehab, relapses

and trials and break breakthroughs.

01:00:16:08 – 01:00:18:18

And that traumas, triggers stories.

01:00:18:18 – 01:00:21:04

I just start helping people for free

and get them good results.

01:00:21:04 – 01:00:22:18

Didn’t even know what a life coach was.

01:00:22:18 – 01:00:26:04

But, what’s called myself

a personal development mentor at the time,

01:00:27:17 – 01:00:30:15

and then did some online research

and some trainings

01:00:30:15 – 01:00:33:17

and qualifications and then just started

charging for life coaching.

01:00:33:17 – 01:00:35:12

Very simple.

01:00:35:12 – 01:00:38:24

but also I just because of this strategic

brain that I have,

01:00:39:24 – 01:00:42:12

I just understood

that you could do it online.

01:00:42:12 – 01:00:46:02

And this was sort of seven years ago

when nobody was doing it online.

01:00:47:04 – 01:00:48:21

What happened really wasn’t.

01:00:48:21 – 01:00:53:01

So I was doing social media, getting

clients from Australia, in America doing.

01:00:53:01 – 01:00:57:01

I have a Facebook video called that before

zoom, and I got clients very quickly.

01:00:57:01 – 01:01:00:01

And, and then I met a business

partner of mine,

01:01:00:08 – 01:01:03:23

who was doing, coaching training,

but he was doing it in the room.

01:01:03:23 – 01:01:07:22

So he was, you know, getting people

still selling the courses

01:01:07:22 – 01:01:08:16

at the back of the room,

01:01:09:21 – 01:01:12:13

running in the back of the room

to sign up for whatever.

01:01:12:13 – 01:01:13:11

And I said, oh, okay.

01:01:13:11 – 01:01:16:18

Well, if you train coaches and I know how

to build the business online,

01:01:18:02 – 01:01:20:04

we could put this together

and I could teach you how to do it online,

01:01:20:04 – 01:01:21:22

and we could just

create this big business.

01:01:21:22 – 01:01:25:10

And it was just a perfect synchronicity,

the perfect time.

01:01:25:10 – 01:01:27:14

We built this great online academy.

01:01:27:14 – 01:01:29:22

that was this one stop shop for coaches.

01:01:29:22 – 01:01:31:18

And, and then the pandemic hit

and everyone

01:01:31:18 – 01:01:33:06

was looking for an opportunity

to work online.

01:01:33:06 – 01:01:37:11

Also, the coaching industry was rising,

and we was also had a different edge

01:01:37:11 – 01:01:38:02

to it.

01:01:38:02 – 01:01:41:23

We spoke about it being younger, sharper,

more powerful, more impactful.

01:01:41:23 – 01:01:44:09

Our branding was more, for younger people.

01:01:44:09 – 01:01:49:16

It was it was less of the traditional,

coaching niche, demographic.

01:01:50:06 – 01:01:53:12

And, and we turned into more of a freedom

based lifestyle model.

01:01:53:12 – 01:01:55:03

So you can coach from anywhere

in the world.

01:01:55:03 – 01:01:55:11

You can.

01:01:55:11 – 01:02:00:05

We have we built a co-working space

in Bali where people can now move to Bali,

01:02:00:05 – 01:02:04:02

live their coach online from the beach

or within the co-working space.

01:02:04:02 – 01:02:07:20

So we created, you know, this lifestyle

on this community, around this

01:02:07:20 – 01:02:12:11

ethos of helping people,

and in the process built apps and virtual

01:02:12:11 – 01:02:17:01

reality and, you know, just built

a good business around around that. And,

01:02:18:07 – 01:02:19:13

yeah.

01:02:19:13 – 01:02:21:17

That’s you did pretty well. Yeah.

01:02:21:17 – 01:02:23:16

So tell me, say my last question for you.

01:02:23:16 – 01:02:26:16

I still got two questions

you want to ask every single guest.

01:02:28:03 – 01:02:31:03

but the first question

that I’ve got to ask you is,

01:02:32:10 – 01:02:34:17

what do you think

you’ve learned about yourself

01:02:34:17 – 01:02:37:17

through your whole journey?

01:02:38:07 – 01:02:39:14

It’s something I’m still working on

01:02:39:14 – 01:02:42:24

because it’s still lingering

and it’s still it’s still not gone.

01:02:42:24 – 01:02:46:10

But the thing

that was the catalyst of change for me was

01:02:46:10 – 01:02:51:02

my shifting of my identity, was knowing

that I’m not bad and unlovable,

01:02:52:08 – 01:02:56:09

realizing that I had the ability

to not only change identity, but I wasn’t.

01:02:56:09 – 01:02:57:20

That person

01:02:57:20 – 01:03:01:07

was actually the breakthrough that I had

because I was beating myself up

01:03:01:07 – 01:03:02:18

for being this bad person,

01:03:02:18 – 01:03:03:10

you know, and thought

01:03:03:10 – 01:03:06:12

that the way my dad treated me

was my fault because I was a bad person.

01:03:06:12 – 01:03:07:07

I kind of deserved it.

01:03:09:00 – 01:03:11:24

so the thing I’ve learned about myself

is I am

01:03:11:24 – 01:03:13:24

good and I am lovable.

01:03:13:24 – 01:03:17:19

But some of these beliefs

and these identities are

01:03:19:04 – 01:03:20:22

they can be shifted

and they can be brought into

01:03:20:22 – 01:03:22:14

your awareness,

but they can still have resonance.

01:03:22:14 – 01:03:25:14

You know, this is,

so I’m still working on them,

01:03:27:00 – 01:03:29:19

to fully be able to open open myself up.

01:03:29:19 – 01:03:30:16

I think.

01:03:30:16 – 01:03:33:15

Otherwise, I still wouldn’t

be in a position of having, you know,

01:03:33:15 – 01:03:38:03

am I, you know, shut off emotions and,

you know, relapses along the way.

01:03:38:11 – 01:03:41:10

What would the Lewis of today

tell your younger

01:03:41:10 – 01:03:44:10

self?

01:03:48:03 – 01:03:49:06

You’re going to be all right.

01:03:49:06 – 01:03:53:16

And your smart kid

that listen to your dad and,

01:03:56:05 – 01:03:57:22

everything’s going to work out okay.

01:03:57:22 – 01:03:59:22

And end. This.

01:03:59:22 – 01:04:01:02

Thank you very much for coming.

01:04:01:02 – 01:04:03:05

Thank you,

I appreciate it. Cheers. Thank you.